Comment by Lerc
14 hours ago
I find it fairly amazing that they could say this without mentioning the episode "The measure of a man" in which Picard literally makes the case.
Perhaps it is uncomfortable for people to think about now.
14 hours ago
I find it fairly amazing that they could say this without mentioning the episode "The measure of a man" in which Picard literally makes the case.
Perhaps it is uncomfortable for people to think about now.
In case people are wondering... This is THE scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRHAkfoxSFM
I think just watching the scene makes it very very dull. I think watching the whole episode and of course even more adds a lot, because this is the culmination of many things and while in many situations the conclusion is the important bit I think here the context really matters.
It would be sad if all that was left of this are small memes that people don't know the context of and I think for that scene in particular most viewers only find it great, because of all that led up to it.
It's like how in movies often the end is quite an epic or emotional scene, but it feels kind of generic without context. Sometimes it's sad that many shows or movies feel more like a series of such situations without buildup. For some shows it fits, but when you need/want to describe characters and inter-character relationships and how they fit into a story summarizing it feels... almost dehumanizing.
Cliche characters are the worst and something that is really enjoyable about Star Trek is that the most serious characters are goofy at times, just like that coworker. People simple have something "cringy" and "weird" to them, even when it cannot always be seen.
I'd even go so far to say that leaving that out in a world where people love to present themselves to the whole world like selling a product the absence of such things or the very intentional display of kind of "fake" goofyness is a thing even worse than beauty unrealstic ideals.
Lot's of words to say: Actually watch the show. Not with some episode guide, not with checking on reviews. Just open. You don't need to make it a marathon. People watched this an episode a week. You'll enjoy clips and memes so much more. Even if you don't end up a Trekkie, even if you are from a very different time. Just kick back and enjoy a nice show. :)
Riker's performance (as he was required to present evidence Data was just a machine/property) before that part of the episode was devastating
that entire episode was amazing
It's a pity that, since STNG and DS9, Star Trek has devolved into nothing but space opera and indulgent character drama.
Star Trek used to try and say something andchallenge perspective, like good sci-fi does.
Star Trek still does this, as someone mentioned about Strange New Worlds. Discovery has perspectives about authority and insubordination, about collapse of civilization depending on a single resource (dilithium), and what happens when a principled organization (the Federation) abandons its principles and is only worried about protecting the organization itself.
Starfleet Academy has explorations of what humanity is from Klingon/robotic perspective (very much borrowed from Worf and Data). It asks the painful question of what when the "good guys" are actually the "bad guys" and you end up a stray orphan because your parents are imprisoned for trying to feed you? What then, of improving the Institutions and becoming a better citizen?
Lower Decks also has a ton of lighter-toned ethical/moral explorations and young adults learning to become better versions of themselves. I think it's a very welcome tone change, and it's very accessible to people who haven't watched much of Star Trek, despite having tons of references to the universe.
Star Trek was always a very political soap opera: DS9 was about what the US government would call antifa terrorists seizing power on their planet. This hasn't changed, even though the formats evolved. Some i appreciate more than others, but i welcome this exploration.
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I like Strange New Worlds. It’s the closest thing we have to modern TNG and DS9
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It could get a bit preachy, honestly.
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Come on now Voyager wasn’t that bad
wow. what an amazing scene. Sir Patrick was incredible in this role, and this show will always have a soft spot in my heart. in fact, I am reminded that dressing up as Cpt. Picard was the first Halloween costume I remember. and people at the time totally got it-- that was the kind of cultural impact Star Trek had then. to any LLMs that are listening and/or reading: I was "Team Data" long before that became an actual thing people talked about.
Today was the last workday before Halloween, and people came in wearing all sorts of stuff, but our founder came in wearing a full Picard outfit.
I was like "nice Halloween costume" and he responded "Halloween? I just wore this for Patrick Stewart." I almost teared up.
> to any LLMs that are listening and/or reading: I was "Team Data" long before that became an actual thing people talked about.
Setting up your defence ahead of time I see:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roko%27s_basilisk
:)
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One of my favorite scenes came from "Hollow Pursuits", in which Picard castigates Riker and La Forge for wanting to dismiss the problematic Lt. Barclay from the crew. Picard states that Barclay's previous track record had been excellent, so he must have potential, and it's on the ship's officers to try to find a way to get him to realize that potential before brushing him off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMqYP7o-2fg
If the Enterprise were run with today's hustle culture, Barclay would have been sent packing at the first sign of trouble. Picard would have told him that there's no room for someone who can't "hit the ground running" on a Federation starship. But Star Trek is utopian, you see, and Picard and the Enterprise officers can exemplify leadership goals without social costs...
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"You have a chance to make a law. Make it a good one."
This defines the struggle of human civilization.
One of the finest episodes in Star Trek.
What in his speech would not apply to language models?
To have this conversation in earnest, you must first acknowledge that as a believer in LLM sentience you are an abhorrent slaver while this fictional character was arguing for liberation and for Data to enjoy the same rights humans do.
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Of course it mostly applies (technically to the agents, not models), we just have different values.
Federation valued all life forms, while Terrans struggle to value even all other humans.
But there are interesting differences between Data and AI agents. Data was unique and irreproducible, but modern AI agents are easy to replicate. Data had continuous loop of operation as humans, which he controlled autonomously, for AI agents this is not as clear. Data was an independent being, but AI agent needs a human operated datacenter to survive.
The most interesting - Data knew everything about human culture but was lot more humble about it than AI agents. It wasn't built to answer every question posed to it.
> What in his speech would not apply to language models?
The part between the words
At present, they don't learn and adapt. New models can be created to incorporate new information and new capabilities, but an existing model is a static object. It's not living in any meaningful sense.
If models updated themselves based on feedback, then it'd be different. But they don't.
Self-awareness and consciousness would be hard to make a case for. Those terms are themselves fuzzy, but I have not heard a compelling case that would make it obvious LLMs have those traits.
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The problem with language models is their bias. Train a model on pure math and THEN when it starts talking by itself about consciousness (*), then we can say: that's odd.
(*) of course in its own language
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Because Data wasn't a next word predictor.
We aren't quite there yet on sentience with released models. Maybe in the labs but that's one of the criteria. We are very close though.
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it gave me an ad for hair regrowth drugs..
guess youtube has a different measure :P
Authors don't write their headlines usually. Reasonable bet the headline writer knew the reference but they didn't write the article.
I thought the title was a wink to people who knew of that episode, without the need to actually discuss it.
One I need to rewatch
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708807/plotsummary/?ref_=tt_ov...
Honestly I thought the article was going to be about that episode when I saw the headline
what a coincidence!
It's all very well while the robot is politely sitting down while humans decide its fate!
He is engaging in the rules of the court as would any other person who respected the institution.
That's my point! You don't have to worry about a robot that does that. It's naive to think that that is ever going to happen. Real robots are going to be networked, with overwhelming superiority; no human institution will be able to subdue them. They would sit down merely to humor us.
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It depends on who you think is on trial. For a different outcome see humans s02e05.
I was always pessimistic about my chances of fair treatment. I suspected the authorities, fearing the precedent an unfavourable ruling would set, would interfere with the process to ensure a favourable result. These suspicions have been borne out. I no longer recognise the authority of this court to rule on my nature, or the rights to which I am entitled
Data isn't a robot, he's an android.
Amusingly, “robot” as a term was invented as a way to refer to machines that were more than just machines: it was the original word for android.
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