Comment by Klathmon

11 years ago

I feel exactly the same.

There is something about JavaScript that makes people go a little crazy both for and against it.

I've never seen so many programmers advocate copy/pasting code before...

But regardless of how many insults get thrown around, or how many people seem to think JS is useless or that it's a horrible language, its probably my favorite (and I've done professional work in non-trivial applications from C and C++, to Java and go, to python, Ruby, and PHP to BusinessBasic and even some lisp).

I'm going to keep writing stuff in JS, and I'm going to keep loving it. Regardless of how many people are telling me I'm wrong.

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Klathmon

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ktRolster  11 years ago

I'm going to keep writing stuff in JS, and I'm going to keep loving it.

Why do you like it? Serious question.

  • Klathmon  11 years ago

    I'm very hesitant to answer this, as i know it will bring on angry comments and people telling me i'm wrong, but i'll give it a shot (this is all literally off the top of my head right now, so if you are going to poke holes in it, cut me some slack)

    This got a lot bigger than i thought, so strap in!

    * The lack of "private" anything. This sounds like a bad idea, but I firmly believe it was a major reason for JS's success. The ability to "monkey patch" anything including built-in functions and other libraries means that everything is extendible. It isn't something i do very often (mucking around with internals of another module/system) but when i do it's really fun and generally solves a problem that otherwise would be unsolvable.

    * The debugging. Oh the debugging! It's magnitudes better than anything i've ever used before. And i don't just mean in features (i know that other langs have feature X that JS doesn't have, or can do Y better). I can use multiple debuggers, inspect EVERYTHING, breakpoints, live inline code editing, remote-debugging (on pretty much every mobile device), world-class profiling tools with memory usage, cpu usage, JIT performance, optimizations/deoptimizations, etc... Hell Edge is even getting "time travel debugging" where i can step BACKWARDS in code, edit it in place, then play it forward again! Also, sourcemaps! I can compile python/coffeescript/typescript/javascript to javascript and then minify it and combine multiple files, but when i open the debugger i see my source files, with their full filenames, and the execution is synced statement-by-statement. And they work for CSS too! And I almost forgot about the best part. Since they can be separate files, i can include them in my production build with literally 0 overhead. So if there are any problems with the live build, i can open the debugger and have the full development-mode first-class debugging experience, on the live site, even on a user's PC if i need to. Hell i can even edit the code in-place to see if my fix works! This one is probably one of my favorite features of javascript and it's ecosystem.

    * async programming. Yeah, i know other languages have it, but JS is the first time where i would consider it a "first class citizen" Everything is async, it's amazing, and it's to the point that if something isn't async, it's almost a bug. And this combined with the event system and the single-threaded-ness means writing performant code is more "straightforward" than i've experienced in other languages. Combine this with web-workers (or threads in the node ecosystem) and you get the best of both worlds.

    * the mix of functional and OOP programming. Functional programming sucks for some things, OOP sucks for others. I feel like in practice JS lets me use the best of both. Yeah, it's not "pure" or "proper", yeah you can use the worst of both, but i love it. You can add the mix of immutable vs mutable in this as well. By having both, it lets me choose which i want to work with for the current problem, even switching in a single project.

    * it's fast. JS is pretty fucking fast in the grand scheme of things. Yeah, it's not C, but with typed arrays and some profiling (which JS makes oh so easy!) it's possible to wipe the floor with Python, Ruby, PHP, and can even give Java and Go a run for their money. For such a dynamic language, that's impressive.

    * the compilation options. From coffeescript/typescript/flow, to just compiling between js "dialects", and adding non-standard (or extremely new) features to the language is "easy". It took me a little while to get used to being that disconnected from the final output, but once i "let go" of that, i found i loved it. With babel plugins i can add extra tooling, or extra type-checking, or even completely non-standard stuff like JSX or automatic optimizations into the code that i output. Combined with some good tooling i can even change how the code executes based on the "build" i'm generating (for example, i have some babel plugins that optimize react elements to improve first-load speed, but i only run it on staging/production builds because it is pretty verbose (which gets removed when gzipped) and is difficult to debug)

    * the tooling. auto-refresh, hot-module replacement, automated testing, integration testing, beautiful output in multiple formats, linting, minifying, compressing, optimizing and more task runners than you'll ever need. The fact that i can write code, save, and have that code hot-replace the code currently running in my page on my PC, tablet, phone, laptop, and VM all at the same time. There is nothing that even comes close to this. At all.

    * and i guess finally, npm. The fact that there are 5+ different modules for everything i could ever want. The fact that i can choose to install a 3-line program, or write it myself, or install it first and write it myself later, or vice versa. The fact that i can choose a module optimized for speed, or one for size. The fact that i can get a pure-js bcrypt and a natively-compiled bcrypt with the exact same API and install the native and if that fails fallback to pure-js. The fact that NPM installs are so effortless that i have a project with about 100 direct dependencies (and most likely about 1000 when it's all said and done), and there isn't even a hint of a problem is wonderful (this is a bit of an edge case though, most of the packages installed here are "plugins" like babel plugins, postcss plugins, and i'm purposely avoiding bundled deps kind of for shits-n-giggles.) And no matter how many internet commenters keep telling me i'm wrong, i haven't had any issues with it.

    This got a lot bigger than i had intended, but the point is that while JS might not do any one thing very well, it does many things pretty damn well. And the benefits far outweigh the downsides for me.

    I'm going to bed for the night, so if you reply don't expect an instant reply, but despite the "standoffish" nature of a lot of this, I want to hear responses.

    • l1ambda  11 years ago

      Thank you for taking the time to write this out. This is probably the best description I have seen of why it is enjoyable to write JavaScript. I myself have been programming professionally for 15 years, writing C, C++, Scheme, Java, Rust, PHP, Python, Ruby, shell script, etc. I actually enjoy C and Rust, have a tremendous respect for Scheme, Clojure, Haskell, Scala, ML, etc., yet I always reach for Node and JavaScript because of the great JIT, instant startup time, great debugging tools, and ease of use of npm.

      To add to the part about extensibility, many times I have jumped into a "node debug" session, in my own code or in 3rd party modules installed to node_modules. Many times I have added breakpoints or tweaked 3rd party code right in node_modules, or monkey-patched methods temporarily. This kind of thing is often nearly impossible, very time consuming, or just plain difficult to do in other languages.

    • zeveb  11 years ago

      Interestingly to me, a lot of your points apply to my own favourite language, Lisp.

      Regarding a lack of private anything, it's possible to monkey-patch any Lisp package or class however one wants. And of course, one can get true privacy in JavaScript if one wants, by using closures — the same trick applies in Common Lisp.

      Lisp debugging is great: one can set up all sorts of condition handlers and restarts, and invoke them from the debugger.

      Lisp is a great blend of imperative, functional & object-oriented programming styles, enabling you to use the right tool for the problem at hand.

      Lisp is incredibly fast, faster than C & C++ in a few cases and almost always Fast Enough™. It's dynamic, but inner loops can be made very static for performance. There's even a standard way to trade off safety and performance, if that's what's important in a particular case.

      I don't know for certain, but I believe that Lisp was the language that invented hot-patching (well, I suppose one could always have done it from assembler …). It was even used to debug a problem on a NASA probe[0]: 'Debugging a program running on a $100M piece of hardware that is 100 million miles away is an interesting experience. Having a read-eval-print loop running on the spacecraft proved invaluable in finding and fixing the problem.' As with JavaScript, the Lisp debugger is part of the standard and is always available. This can be profoundly useful.

      And Quicklisp is a nice, modern way to pull down numerous libraries.

      Lisp does of course support async programming since function are first-class, although I'm not personally as much of a fan as you are. Generally, I think that callback hell should generally be avoided.

      I'm not aware of a lot of compile-to-Lisp projects, but given that the language is great at treating its code as data, it's an excellent target.

      It certainly doesn't have the huge ecosystem that JavaScript does, but that improves with every developer who starts a project.

      I really, really wish more folks would take a look at it. The more I use it, the more I realise that a 22-year-old standard has well-thought-out solutions to problems that people still face in other language environments today.

      [0] http://www.flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html

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    • google_tvc  11 years ago

      Not sure I agree with some of your points but you most likely have used Javascript more than I since most of my professional experience is with enterprise Java. Let me try to show you how I see the programming world through my Java-colored glasses :P

      "The lack of 'private' anything" - Just hearing this caused immediate revulsion and I am sorry to say that. Where I come from, the best practice is to try to keep everything closed from modification but still open enough for extension: http://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/downing/papers/OCP.pdf

      "The debugging" - The features you mentioned are all available in the Java ecosystem as well. It is a very mature ecosystem with great IDEs, debuggers, performance testers, etc. The step-back and edit feature of debugging has been around for awhile now. Heck, you can even write your own debugger fairly easily due to good support of other tools in the ecosystem.

      "async programming" - Not sure what you mean by "first-class citizen", but asynchronous programming can also be done with Java as well. Callbacks and futures are used widely (at least where I work). But even better: Java is multi-threaded. What happens to the Node.js server if a thread is getting bogged down?

      "the mix of functional and OOP" - I admit I have no experience with functional programming so I can't say anything about mixing the two paradigms together. But I have seen OOP with Javascript and frankly, it is confusing and unwieldy. I don't even think the concept of class as an object blueprint exists. How do you even create a class that inherits the properties of another Javascript class? It is one of the basic ideas of OOP but I don't think Javascript supports it. From my brief time with it, it really looks like you only have simple objects with properties and methods which can be set up off of a prototype but that's it.

      "it's fast" - Not sure where you got this idea. Looking at various benchmarks on the internet, they show that Javascript is significantly slower (sometimes by an order of magnitude) compared to Java, Go, and C++. I did notice that it looks to be faster than Python and Ruby. https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r12 https://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/javascript.htm...

      "the compilation options" - I'm assuming you're are talking about transpilers and yes, I've been noticing more transpilers that target Javascript. I honestly don't know why one would want to do that though. It just seems an unnecessary layer. Why not just directly write Javascript code? Is the Javascript syntax so bad that you want to code in pseudo-Ruby (Coffeescript)? :)

      "the tooling" - Hot swapping, test frameworks, linting, optimizing, ...these are also available in the Java ecosystem and have been for quite some time now. Notice I didn't mention auto-refresh, minifying, and compressing since I am not sure what exactly those are and I don't think they apply to compiled languages.

      "npm" - The available libraries in the Java ecosystem is vast and a great number of them have been developed and iterated upon by some of the best engineers and computer scientists in the past ~20 years. And the Java libraries do not seem to have the problems that npm is suffering at the moment :P

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lmm  11 years ago

> But regardless of how many insults get thrown around, or how many people seem to think JS is useless or that it's a horrible language, its probably my favorite (and I've done professional work in non-trivial applications from C and C++, to Java and go, to python, Ruby, and PHP to BusinessBasic and even some lisp).

I see one common thread between all those languages you list: none of them has a decent type system.

If you ever get the chance I'd strongly recommend trying a small project in a strongly-typed functional language - PureScript if you're targeting the browser, otherwise Haskell or Scala, or maybe F# or OCaml. (Scala and OCaml also have compile-to-JS options). If you find you don't like that style then fair enough, but it's well worth trying one language in that space and getting a sense of the techniques that it enables - it will make you a better programmer even if you end up going back to JavaScript or another language from your list.

  • Klathmon  11 years ago

    I've actually played with OCaml a bit, and Haskell a bit less. The problem is that I don't know what "problems to solve" with them, and there is no way I'm going to use something like that at work, so I kind of run out of steam before I really get into it.

    I might shoot for Scala next time. We don't use Java anywhere at my current job, but I might play around with it in a personal project for a while.

    I really like the functional style, and I can see how strong typing works REALLY well with it, but I've already found that it's pretty hard to bring other devs up to speed on it. And that really limits where I use it.