Comment by ChuckNorris89
7 years ago
>I will gladly work for 2 - 3 months on hyper mode, giving away my mental and physical health for a feature that will actually provide business value and for which the business can make a good case for why it's needed yesterday.
I feel sorry for you.
As some who's been around the block a few times, I will never, EVER, give away my mental or physical health for someone's business.
My health is more important than their quarterly targets.
In defense of the parent, I can imagine a situation where I'm excited and truly bought into a product as improving peoples lives and am willing to expend the energy to dramatically improve that product in meaningful ways. I think this is something a lot of folks in our industry want, and that's not per se bad though it can lead to negative outcomes.
I had a project like this once. I really threw myself into it. I wasn't dying, but it did have a negative impact on my life in most other dimensions.
Then some kind of politics held the project up (likely for years), and they had me work a different project, so I quit, 'cause it was the success of that particular project that had me coming to work (it was gonna prevent traffic accidents, and it was fun to work on).
I have a healthier work/life balance now, but I don't care about what I'm working on. If they could get the wheels moving on that project again I'd switch back in a heartbeat.
I'm gonna die either way. If I have to put in a bit more work in order for it all to have meant something more than pointless meetings and products that nobody wants, then that's work I'm willing to do.
One of the rare instances in which I threw myself into those sprints I was advocating for is working on the national emergency management system. I loved the project, I felt like my contribution to society was well worth the months spent sweating over it. Childless, young and healthy, it was a great experience and I still check the uptime from time to time a lot of years later.
I've since left that institution precisely for what you mention, politics, and exactly like you I something think about working on that project again. I don't think any project I'll ever work on will be as satisfying from a societal perspective, as that one.
Thank you for the defense, it's exactly the kind of situation I'm arguing for.
I think it's also important to note the context of who is doing this kind of sprints. Does he have a family? Does he have other engagements? Does he have other health issues?
It's not for everyone, but I believe in my case, timing them properly, recovering properly afterwards and reaping the benefits has worked in my favor.
I might have given the impression that I am advocating for regular such sprints when in fact I have done this rarely, at pivotal moments, with years in between them.
This is giving money to the rich. Don’t put in any more time than you need to; no product is worth that.
The rich put money in and they get money out, myself I can only sell my services and when I truly believe in something to see that it is implemented to the best of my abilities.
I will always look after my own health and will always try to maintain control, but each of us has his own context. "No product is worth that" is a general statement that might not apply to everything and everyone.
It's not a war. The rich are to be feared and pitied, like all humans.
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This culture of sacrificing everything for the bottom line is a cancer on our industry.
Yeah that's a junior mistake. In this case, a person can have a solid 20+ years of great career and still do this basic mistake. World is full of people rich and poor, smart and not so much, who end up regretting their life choices when getting old.
I would say it differently though - do I have +-guaranteed massive return that over-compensates my extra effort and loss? If I get something meaningful, ie paid next 5 amazing vacations, can retire 1 year earlier, pay off massive part of mortgage or something on similar level, then I can at least consider it.
Potentially unpopular opinion but I agree. If there's a definite payoff to burning hard on a given project, I'll do it. Trading a few months or weeks for a paid off home is hardly insane at all.
I feel both sorry for the parent and also relate to it. I have several sprints a year that get me so excited about work, that I will head to work after kids’ bedtimes to code — all night — because I can’t stop thinking about some solution. Sometimes I’m so excited I wouldn’t be able to sleep so might as well work.
Why do you do that for a company that would be throw you away if it made economic sense to do so?
Why don't you find personal avenues in which to exert that creative energy for you, your family, or society?
In many ways, it is actually a very selfish decision on my part as an Engineer -- I'm doing it because i'm thrilled with my job, the product I work on (and launched) and cant stop thinking about some of the Engineering problems I encounter -- because they are so fascinating.
My current employer is shrewd in that they have aligned their interests to mine -- they have moved away most of the BS typical of engineering jobs. They have other people do the parts I don't enjoy doing, and they have given me wide latitude in Product and Product Engineering decisions. They have also given me wide latitude on task selection -- which tasks I take and which get assigned to others on my team (or others on other teams.) This isn't a constant state, it happens on several sprints a year.
On a side note, yes, I exert lots of creative energy in other domains. I'm on the board of a non-profit mentoring org, I'm an advisor to a nature conservancy organization, and I spend a huge amount of time with my family and children.
When I was single, I was part of a community food cooperative and several educational mentoring orgs. Now, the lions share of free time goes to children.
Side note -- if/when my employer turns into Initech and I'm filling out TPS Reports, you can be sure I'll be clocking out at 5pm.
You are making a lot of assumptions here. Not all companies are bad or will throw you away. Maybe they are friends or family with the owner? In that case, helping the company bleeds outside of just an economic decision.
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Answering as you are referring to my post. The kind of sprints I'm advocating for are few and far in between and shouldn't be taken lightly.
Yeah, that sentence leapt out at me too. Bizarre life priorities, and undermines otherwise sensible remarks.
Happy to be a slave as long as it makes me feel good.
You're willingly choosing to work on an interesting problem that you otherwise would not have access to, and, let's be real, our compensation and autonomy as developers is far from that of servitude. Plus you can quit any time.
Slavery here really hyperbolic. We're talking about hard work that is both interesting and rewarding.
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I think I might have given the impression that I'm advocating for this kind of sprint as a regular occurrence when I'm actually advocating for very spaced out moments (the kind you can count on your hand in your entire career), well chosen and with the proper aftercare.
> I feel sorry for you.
I'm doing O.K., thank you for the concern.
> As some who's been around the block a few times, I will never, EVER, give away my mental or physical health for someone's business.
> My health is more important than their quarterly targets.
I wholeheartedly agree, however I believe there are some situations where such a choice is not so bad. If you're young, have no obligations, believe in what you do and will end up a lot better after the sprint, I think it's not such a bad thing. The most important thing I believe is being able to take the time off after said sprint to recover and get things back to normal. It shouldn't be a normality in your life and you should be in total control of the situation.
Also such sprints should be seriously spaced.
>however I believe there are some situations where such a choice is not so bad. If you're young, have no obligations, believe in what you do and will end up a lot better after the sprint
How will YOU end up better after the sprint if you're not working on your own product but on your company's? That will benefit your CEO and shareholders for sure but how does it benefit YOU exactly?
Keep in mind, you have one health in your life and when it's gone it's gone for good whereas there'll be plenty of world-changing unicorns where you can work yourself to exhaustion if that's what you wish. Nobody has ever regretted on their deathbed not having worked more for someone else.
Sure you can say that now, but have you ever worked in a recession?