Comment by ogre_codes
7 years ago
Unlike any other previous Tesla, or for that matter any other previous electric car, this is a reasonable value proposition. Everyone is so busy panning the looks they are overlooking the utility of this truck. Even the Model 3 is expensive compared to its peers at $35k. This this is priced competitive with non-electric trucks, heck, it's priced extremely well versus electric trucks. A 6 seat truck with a 6.5 foot truck bed and a 3500 pound capacity for $40k is genuinely competitive with GM/ Ford, likewise $50k for a 4WD truck which tows 14k pounds is absolutely reasonable. Unless you are regularly driving more than 250 miles per day, being able to charge at home is way better than filling up at gas stations.
> Unless you are regularly driving more than 250 miles per day, being able to charge at home is way better than filling up at gas stations.
There's no way the Tesla truck gets 250 miles when loaded up with 3500 pounds or hauling a trailer. It's very unclear if the range is sufficient if you use this truck like an actual truck where you need those things. Similarly if you are using this as a work truck there's some poor design choices involved here, too. Like the inability to access the bed from the sides of the vehicle. Or the non-flat roof complicating roof racks or additional lighting.
This appears to be more of a "lifestyle" truck than a "work" truck, and in that market how important are the extra cargo pounds or trailer capacity?
Work trucks are those plain white base model trucks with steel wheels and plastic interiors. You get them cheap and they will basically approve anyone for cheap financing of a few trucks through their business. Nobody is catering to those buyers when they design a truck. You look at those things on the lot and they look like one of the nicer trucks except only partially assembled.
The $50k trucks are basically for suburban dads. They used to drive luxury sedans while their wives drove minivans. Now the dads drive trucks that have replaced the minivan and the moms drive luxury SUVs. Trucks need to fit 6+ people, have nice interiors and enough space for hauling kids' sports gear and Home Depot stuff on the weekends. The Cybertruck is perfect for this segment. Fits 6 people, has plenty of hauling capacity and will take down a Ferrari in the 1/4 mile.
> They used to drive luxury sedans while their wives drove minivans. Now the dads drive trucks that have replaced the minivan and the moms drive luxury SUVs.
I've been thinking for a while now that luxury trucks (like the F-150 Platinum, Silverado High Country, etc.) are basically the modern-day versions of giant land-yacht sedans like the Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight, Cadillac DeVille, Mercury Grand Marquis, Lincoln Town Car, etc.
You can thank CAFE focusing more on car fuel economy than truck fuel economy, plus a culture that's come to increasingly value high ride height and a rugged image.
Let's be honest, this truck won't replace Chevy/Ram/Ford trucks on work sites. This truck will primarily be used to haul mountain bikes, soccer equipment and the occasional run to Home Depot.
those are literally the three things that are a major pain in the neck for me [sedan], and when I saw that tesla was developing a truck, I was like "oh sweet! Now I can hit the trails and haul garden supplies with a greater level of convenience, and without smuggering up the earth as much!"
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Not everyone who buys trucks uses them as work trucks, but for the people who are looking for work trucks, why wouldn't they use this truck?
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> in that market how important are the extra cargo pounds or trailer capacity?
Not really important. What's important is that it _look_ like it can haul stuff. Like most Ford F-1-2-whatevers, Rams and other pickups, most of the time they're empty and car-wash clean.
I actually like the looks of the Tesla pickup. It's about time they went more avant-garde with their designs. This is supposed to be the future, dammit, Mr Musk's other company makes spaceships. Why NOT futuristic cars instead of Lexus look-alikes?
Sure, embrace the future. But it looks like something out of Mad Max, attenuated with the macho looking guys piling out of it. It has a very "me against the dangerous world" tone, something Musk has expressed before (in denigrating public transportation). It's a very aggressive introduction, highlighting the worst aspects of private vehicles, and a very poor direction to set.
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Watch Tesla come out with a trailer which includes extra batteries and maybe even torque... hahah
WHAAAAAAT? didn't think of that. A trailer with extra battery and can actually haul stuff on top of is an AMAZING idea.
Gas truck ranges go down when hauling too.
Right, but if you're hauling all day you can stop and fill up in five minutes.
250 is the range of the base model. The top end model doubles that.
The top-end model also nearly doubles the price and puts it in an entirely different class of competition. The $50k Cybertruck, comparable in price to something like the F-150 Raptor or Tacoma TRD Pro, is "only" 300 mile range. At the top-end model's $70k you're deep into Ford Super Duty territory
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Both those ranges are (I assume) with the truck empty, or with just a driver.
TFL hooked a Model X up to a trailer and it basically reduced the range to a joke
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You don't get anywhere near rated milage/ range on a normal truck when hauling loads either. The truth is even for work trucks, most trucks spend 80+% of the time lightly loaded or empty.
The issue with lumber racks and the apparent inability to haul larger items is a much bigger concern for "Work Trucks".
I see this as something which I can haul 3-4 friends and their bikes up to the trailhead in (or skiing/ camping/ fishing) and it seems pretty reasonably set up for that.
Bed will be used to hold soccer ball.
BTW, you're ignoring potentially huge cost savings with gas. Trucks are notoriously gas guzzling, many people spending 2-500 a month in gas. Cost would drop dramatically if you could plugin every night and wake up with a full 'tank'.
Trucks are gas guzzlers as compared to gas sedans. There’s no reason an electric truck of similar utility wouldn’t be similarly an electricity guzzler without making some sacrifices. The only benefit is that all-electric brings significant torque improvements even at low horsepower, but with modern turbochargers low-rpm torque has long been solved (my 2.0T sedan can tow!) and people won’t stop “horsepower shopping” just because the torque numbers are high as it’s mainly for bragging rights anyway.
Sure, it will guzzle electricity, which is still way cheaper than guzzling gas. The more energy being consumed the better the electric vehicle equation looks. This is why Tesla's semitrailer tractor is exciting.
Horsepower is just a proxy for 0-60 anyway. People shop for the experience, not the numbers, even if they end up at the numbers.
Eh, doesn't have to be this way. What we need are smaller, lighter trucks; this message seems to have been missed by Ford who have released a new Ranger that's bigger than the F150 used to be.
No, because that’s just going to bring you unibody junk like the Ridgeline.
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This isn't something I'm ignoring, not having to deal with fuel ups and maintenance is one of the big reasons I've wanted to buy an electric car for several years. But every time I've priced a Tesla in the past, the premium for electric has been too high for me. That's what really caught my eye about this.
If this had been available 3 years ago when I bought my truck it would have been an instant purchase. As it is, I'm likely to sell my current truck and buy this when it comes out.
12000 miles a year at 13mpg and 2.5$ gas is $2308 per year. With a 5 year ownership time you are saving only [$11500-charging electricity costs]. So mid range $57000 AWD becomes $45500. Still pricey for most people.
I'd rather them come out with totally utilitarian bare bones truck but with the range and basic capabilities for $25K or so. THAT would be a game changer in the SUV/Truck space.
There are additional TCO for internal combustion vehicles that EVs do not have, such as maintenance on a vastly more complex set of components. If you amortize the costs of the EV over ten years you would likely see double the savings you cite.
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I doubt the economics around the battery pack allow for a 25k price point.
I didn't like the looks of this thing when I saw it, probably because it looks so different.
But after appreciating all the awesome engineering that went into it, I find myself loving the scifi look. Finally a vehicle designed for geeks like me. I had always thought it sad that stainless steel vehicles never caught on. Here's my chance, and built from the same material as a space ship, that's icing on the cake. This is for sure my next vehicle.
> Even the Model 3 is expensive compared to its peers at $35k.
I thought I read around a track, the Model 3 gives a BMW M3 (which is $60k-$80k) a run for its money.
The $35k model 3 does not.
The model 3 performance holds it's own.. for two laps until it reduces power for being too hot.
Still super impressive but if you're a track die-hard and have the money, it looks like the new Porsche EV will have a leg up there.
The P3D doesn't have the same heat problems the Model S has.
And you could buy two for the price of that Porsche.
Not if you have to do a number of laps, though. Heat issues, etc. - the M3 is nearly track ready off the lot, the Tesla is really just a luxury car that happens to go fast from time to time.
Is the base Model 3 giving the BMW M3 a run for its money, or a higher end Model 3?
Regardless, the M3 isn't exactly the pinnacle of bang-for-your-buck speed. You are paying a big premium on the BMW for fit & finish which is miles ahead of the Model 3.
But when I wrote about the pricing on the Model 3 I was thinking more in terms of utility, not pure performance. If the job to be done is driving to work, the M3 isn't the car I'm looking at. It's the Honda Civic.
The towing capacity is as follows for the Tesla truck, 2WD $39K=7K lbs, 2Motor AWD $49K = 10K lbs and 3Motor AWD $69K = 14K lbs
When I’m hauling around a 10,000 pound airstream trailer on highways that 500 miles becomes 250 and 250 becomes 125 on flat land. Now consider going uphill on mountains and the range drops even more. There’s a real possibility of being stranded with no place left to charge in the middle of nowhere where I could be easily killed without anyone even knowing.
> I could be easily killed without anyone even knowing.
Well, that escalated quickly.
haha, thought the same thing.
I don't think it's as extreme as you're making it seem. Going uphill on mountains means you're going downhill which not only doesn't use power but regenerates power to the battery. It's obviously not insignificant of a cost but adding a trailer doesn't immediately halve the usable range.
>Going uphill on mountains means you're going downhill which not only doesn't use power but regenerates power to the battery.
If you are pulling a trailer (let's say a camping trailer) you are likely going to stay a few days at a place before returning home and going down those hills you went up.
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> It's obviously not insignificant of a cost but adding a trailer doesn't immediately halve the usable range.
It probably would through aerodynamic drag at the same speed but if you're planning on towing you can just drive slower (65 instead of 80) to make up for it.
> Going uphill on mountains means you're going downhill
Not if the mountain's big enough. You might only go an appreciable distance downhill on the way home.
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My truck goes from 22 mpg to 10 mpg when I hook up my RV. Utility trailers aren't nearly so bad, but an RV trailer is like an open parachute behind you.
Towing puts a toll on any vehicle's gas mileage, and you can run out of gas in a normal truck too. Tesla's have range indicators built in and let you know how far you are from the nearest charging station. Turns out people who are traveling pay at least a little attention to vehicle range, particularly when hauling a load. This isn't unique to electric vehicles, regular trucks fuel economy goes way down with a load as well and gas stations are often few and far between in the mountains.
Several of Musk's numbers don't add up. No pickup has a bed capacity of 3500 pounds. That's 1.75 tons. Even full sized US pickups top out at 3/4 ton, unless they're super duty which adds greatly to weight and lowers MPG painfully. A 1.75 ton load, especially raised as high up as shown in this prototype, would flip the truck in the slightest of turns. 3500 is surely a fake number.
Second, this is going to be a very heavy truck, 6000 pounds or more. No truck with thick stainless steel body panels can weigh less than 5500 pounds. How that much weight can deliver 250 to 500 miles of range... sounds like fantasy #2. Apparently Musk is imagining that battery technology will advance a lot before this thing ships. Or he's just making stuff up.
Finally, the claim that the bed will extend to the ground to form a useful ramp. Nah. These folks have never lived with a pickup. No object heavier than a bicycle is going to make it up that 45 degree incline and into the bed without crashing into the cab before it can stop, especially given the polished floor of the demo truck. That's fantasy #3. No telling how much more reality distortion lies beneath that funky exterior.
> Several of Musk's numbers don't add up.
If they don't, then they will need to be revised before release and we can discuss them at that time.
> No pickup has a bed capacity of 3500 pounds.
Nonsense. Super Duty trucks have payload capacities up to 7,850 lbs. Even a ford F150 with a V6 has a capacity near a ton and they only go up from there. https://www.fordf150blog.com/2019-f-150-towing-and-payload-c...
> How that much weight can deliver 250 to 500 miles of range... sounds like fantasy #2.
This falls into the category of put up or shut up. Tesla has bad track record of hitting deadlines, but a really good track record of hitting their range estimates. If they don't hit 250 miles on the base model, we're sure to hear about it when it's launched.
> Finally, the claim that the bed will extend to the ground to form a useful ramp. Nah. These folks have never lived with a pickup.
If you don't see the value in being able to tilt the truck bed then you've clearly never used a pickup to it's capacity.
I've bought 4 major appliances lately and hauled several tons of lumber, concrete, & gravel. Even without the ramps, Being able to tilt the bed down to unload the truck sounds like a fucking godsend to me. Particularly for loose loads and lumber where it would act a bit like a dump truck.
> A 1.75 ton load, especially raised as high up as shown in this prototype, would flip the truck in the slightest of turns.
The battery in this truck is probably incredibly heavy, which really moves the center of mass down. The suspension is also computer controlled, and at high loads you could lower the vehicle to be closer to the ground. Carrying 3500 pounds off road isn't a good idea even if the vehicle can corner so you don't need the clearance.
Actually I think your overestimating the total weight, but it goes to the above point when you say
> Second, this is going to be a very heavy truck, 6000 pounds or more.
> Musk is imagining that battery technology will advance a lot before this thing ships
Unlikely, more likely he is just planning on putting a lot of battery in it. Unlike you, Musk has lots of engineers working on this and has a pretty damn good idea of what is possible.
Pickup trucks are ideal for packing a lot of battery, lots of space along the bottom to do so.
> Finally, the claim that the bed will extend to the ground to form a useful ramp. Nah. These folks have never lived with a pickup. No object heavier than a bicycle is going to make it up that 45 degree incline and into the bed without crashing into the cab before it can stop, especially given the polished floor of the demo truck. That's fantasy #3. No telling how much more reality distortion lies beneath that funky exterior.
ROFL - you realized they literally live demoed doing so on a ATV right?
Moreover, the main use of ramps, at least in my mind having unloaded and loaded a pickup truck, is making it easier to move heavy objects in and out by hand.
I'm pretty sure the only person fantasizing here is you.
I think you got confused. These weight numbers are for towing, not to be put into the truck bed.
"With up to 3,500 pounds of payload capacity and adjustable air suspension, Cybertruck is the most powerful tool we have ever built, ..."
https://www.tesla.com/cybertruck
Payload is bed capacity not tow capacity.
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