The mess with audio servers is one of the main reasons I could never stand Linux as my primary laptop OS. Jack, ALSA, OSS, Pulse, etc. Far too often the answer to my problem was that it didn't work on that specific audio server, or that I needed to compile my own server/kernel/app from source.
Easily, reliably, and quickly playing audio is table stakes for Windows and Mac OS. They've been doing it for years. But instead of improving one or two audio APIs, on Linux it is time for a new audio server that will, but doesn't, solve all of the problems of every predecessor.
> Easily, reliably, and quickly playing audio is table stakes for Windows and Mac OS. They've been doing it for years. But instead of improving one or two audio APIs, on Linux it is time for a new audio server that will, but doesn't, solve all of the problems of every predecessor.
I mean, I have currently 5 soundcards on my desktop computer, 1 pro over PCIe, 2 pro over USB, 1 standard HD Audio and 1 output in my screen's HDMI, and I can assure you that even on windows it's definitely not a smooth ride between WASAPI, ASIO, MME, WDMKS... things crash or get stuck routinely, and I sometimes get random loud buzzes or no sound until I reboot. With my band we had tons of issues with a M-Audio card on windows fixating itself on the wrong sampling rate as soon as a desktop music playing was launched (this includes web browsers), entirely preventing playback on Ableton Live for instance.
It's barely better on macOS, e.g. look at that shit: https://github.com/OSSIA/score/issues/778. macOS also sacrifices some low-latency when comparing the same hardware on it versus Linux (with raw ALSA or JACK) and Windows with ASIO.
I think the guy with 5 sound cards might be the exception that proves the rule - the conversation was about playing back audio from the browser not which OS starts to fall apart when you need a DAW for your band.
What exists as far as open source digital audio interfaces? Meaning only digital i/o — no analog.
It seems like a relatively contained problem to take multiple streams of PCM audio into a computer, locked to word clock. Then the hard, fiddly aspects of analog design can be left to high-quality outboard converters which speak MADI or whatever.
I say "contained" because I don't want to minimize the difficulty of getting such a design right, but it seems like you only have to get it right once.
I've had many issues with OS X audio on Catalina - all of my USB audio devices skip and pop on it. It's also a pain to
configure, with options bizarrely hidden in the MIDI app.
Windows probably has the best audio stack of them all (battle tested, easy to use UX). In comparison, JACK/pulse are pretty good as well and people use it professionally. Like most things on Linux, the initial UX is a bit of a pain, but once you get past it you get amazing customization, even more so than Windows.
These are the only abstractions I'm aware of on Linux systems - and they are simply built on top of ALSA which is the
kernel's core sound API. Almost all desktop environments simply install PulseAudio, and you never have to worry about
sound.
How old is your Mac? That issue sounds very strange to me.
CoreAudio is far and away the most impressive and powerful audio API across the board. It's ridiculous how much you can do with it and the abstractions it provides.
It's also been better, faster, and supported lower latency than Windows up until WASAPI came around - you needed to use ASIO on Windows for years. Even today you can't programmatically change the sample rate of a device on Windows, which means that engines like RtAudio have to do resampling under the hood to support basic functionality that's been in CoreAudio.
The only problem with it is that the documentation has evaporated. Which admittedly is a big one.
After a bit of struggle I found that Pulseaudio over Jack adresses my needs. Music production software connects directly to Jack and all other software (browser, video player, etc.) uses Pulseaudio. Also the Cadence GUI really helps to set this up correctly.
My Chromium plays audio to my external and internal cards fine without Pulseaudio, I have just ALSA and don't know who still uses OSS (no judgement, I just use the default). I think your comment can only have an adverse effect on the conversation if you don't give specific examples.
(Nitpick: Linux has nothing to do with Pulseaudio, it's just the kernel.)
The mess with audio servers is one of the main reasons I could never stand Linux as my primary laptop OS. Jack, ALSA, OSS, Pulse, etc. Far too often the answer to my problem was that it didn't work on that specific audio server, or that I needed to compile my own server/kernel/app from source.
Easily, reliably, and quickly playing audio is table stakes for Windows and Mac OS. They've been doing it for years. But instead of improving one or two audio APIs, on Linux it is time for a new audio server that will, but doesn't, solve all of the problems of every predecessor.
> Easily, reliably, and quickly playing audio is table stakes for Windows and Mac OS. They've been doing it for years. But instead of improving one or two audio APIs, on Linux it is time for a new audio server that will, but doesn't, solve all of the problems of every predecessor.
I mean, I have currently 5 soundcards on my desktop computer, 1 pro over PCIe, 2 pro over USB, 1 standard HD Audio and 1 output in my screen's HDMI, and I can assure you that even on windows it's definitely not a smooth ride between WASAPI, ASIO, MME, WDMKS... things crash or get stuck routinely, and I sometimes get random loud buzzes or no sound until I reboot. With my band we had tons of issues with a M-Audio card on windows fixating itself on the wrong sampling rate as soon as a desktop music playing was launched (this includes web browsers), entirely preventing playback on Ableton Live for instance.
It's barely better on macOS, e.g. look at that shit: https://github.com/OSSIA/score/issues/778. macOS also sacrifices some low-latency when comparing the same hardware on it versus Linux (with raw ALSA or JACK) and Windows with ASIO.
I think the guy with 5 sound cards might be the exception that proves the rule - the conversation was about playing back audio from the browser not which OS starts to fall apart when you need a DAW for your band.
2 replies →
What exists as far as open source digital audio interfaces? Meaning only digital i/o — no analog.
It seems like a relatively contained problem to take multiple streams of PCM audio into a computer, locked to word clock. Then the hard, fiddly aspects of analog design can be left to high-quality outboard converters which speak MADI or whatever.
I say "contained" because I don't want to minimize the difficulty of getting such a design right, but it seems like you only have to get it right once.
6 replies →
unrelated, but what do you use 5 sound cards for?
1 reply →
I've had many issues with OS X audio on Catalina - all of my USB audio devices skip and pop on it. It's also a pain to configure, with options bizarrely hidden in the MIDI app.
Windows probably has the best audio stack of them all (battle tested, easy to use UX). In comparison, JACK/pulse are pretty good as well and people use it professionally. Like most things on Linux, the initial UX is a bit of a pain, but once you get past it you get amazing customization, even more so than Windows.
These are the only abstractions I'm aware of on Linux systems - and they are simply built on top of ALSA which is the kernel's core sound API. Almost all desktop environments simply install PulseAudio, and you never have to worry about sound.
How old is your Mac? That issue sounds very strange to me.
CoreAudio is far and away the most impressive and powerful audio API across the board. It's ridiculous how much you can do with it and the abstractions it provides.
It's also been better, faster, and supported lower latency than Windows up until WASAPI came around - you needed to use ASIO on Windows for years. Even today you can't programmatically change the sample rate of a device on Windows, which means that engines like RtAudio have to do resampling under the hood to support basic functionality that's been in CoreAudio.
The only problem with it is that the documentation has evaporated. Which admittedly is a big one.
4 replies →
After a bit of struggle I found that Pulseaudio over Jack adresses my needs. Music production software connects directly to Jack and all other software (browser, video player, etc.) uses Pulseaudio. Also the Cadence GUI really helps to set this up correctly.
My Chromium plays audio to my external and internal cards fine without Pulseaudio, I have just ALSA and don't know who still uses OSS (no judgement, I just use the default). I think your comment can only have an adverse effect on the conversation if you don't give specific examples.
(Nitpick: Linux has nothing to do with Pulseaudio, it's just the kernel.)
It's already enabled and lots of people use it, although it's not compiled in on the mozilla-provided builds (but downstream builders enable it).
What really? How do I get it?