Comment by zozbot234
6 years ago
> ... the fact that he responded lends credence to that premise because its core holding was that it would elicit a response.
My point is precisely that "the fact that X responds, i.e. objects to premise Y lends credence to that premise because its core holding was that it would elicit a response" is a pointless and, indeed, content-less rhetorical trick, not an intellectually honest argument; moreover, that there are good reasons to be aware of this trick being played on you. You can call that "reasoned skepticism" or "knee-jerk ego defense", but that's not so important; indeed, I am quite willing to admit my "hostility" and "bald-faced rejection" of any such pointless tricks, no matter what their surrounding context might be.
It's indeed a rhetorical trick (many of the most illuminating arguments lead you unknowingly to their point), but it's not pointless. One key aspect of white fragility is that it engenders an overwhelming compulsion to counter any attack on white identity or to insert oneself into discussions where their presence is detrimental to the discourse or even their own argument.
Illustrating the idea that you can't help yourselves is meaningful.
>It's indeed a rhetorical trick (many of the most illuminating arguments lead you unknowingly to their point), but it's not pointless. One key aspect of white fragility is that it engenders an overwhelming compulsion to counter any attack on white identity or to insert oneself into discussions where their presence is detrimental to the discourse or even their own argument.
What you describe is less any case of "white fragility", and more a degree of irritation at misapplication or dishonest application of rhetorical technique.
Anyone who has had any exposure to classical rhetoric sees the structure of what you're trying to do, and is trying to inform you that you are undermining your own credibility by doing what you are doing.
>It's indeed a rhetorical trick (many of the most illuminating arguments lead you unknowingly to their point)
No, most good good faith rhetoric doesn't "unknowingly lead you to their point". It invites you to think. To ponder and consider. What you, and other adherents of white fragility are doing is not that. You're taking any counter rhetorical engagement as an a priori proof of your conclusion, which is an example of circular reasoning.
It's like saying a parent or guardian is demonstrating parental/guardian fragility because even though a child or ward makes a mistake they can't help themselves but to attempt to correct them. No. It isn't a failing on parent's/guardian's part. The ward has done something derp, and they care enough to call them out, and attempt to remediate the faux pas so that it doesn't continue making the ward's life more difficult than need be.
Same dynamic is going on here, without the implied authoritative relationship. In an exchange of ideas amongst equals with different viewpoints, instead of taking any further attempts at counterargument in good faith as an indicator you might be doing something in error, missing something, or as an invitation to broaden your view by considering from a different point of view, you instead double-down by asserting that it is an illustration of bad faith on the part of the person reaching out and trying in good faith to commiserate with you. In that sense it is little more than an overly elaborate rhetorical exchange stop point, as there is no further room for exchange of meaningful information if all you're going to do in the end is shunt further exchange into the "Haha, White Fragility" bucket.
Just figured I'd point that out in case no one else can figure out a way to make the point more obvious.
>Illustrating the idea that you can't help yourselves is meaningful.
No, it isn't. Eliciting a response to rhetorical bad form is like saying that a compiler is fragile because it calls out syntax errors.
You misunderstood. I'm not here to "exchange ideas." Neither was this a trap. My intent was explicit: "Here is an example of a topic HN posters have hostile, knee-jerk reactions to, at the mere suggestion that it exists." The responses were hostile, knee-jerk reactions to the mere suggestion that it exists. Their contention that it's okay to have such responses because they don't believe "white fragility" exists, and so are compelled to state this, and why, and why it's unfair to hold that denying its existence is a part of white fragility, is white fragility, is... exactly what I explained would happen. The entire possibility space of "arguing that white fragility doesn't exist" is encapsulated within the support structure of my argument. Letting imprudent individuals make your point for you isn't bad faith, even if it makes them feel bad.
No amount of talking around the issue takes away from the original point: the original "white fragility" post was an invitation to speak intelligently with one's silence. As with a parent who simply walks away from a tantrum, or a friend whose silence conveys dissent, simple acceptance of circumstances is all that was necessary to prove to the contrary the raised notion. The people who responded made themselves into case studies; that's all.
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