Comment by thegrimmest
5 years ago
> It is a reasonable perspective to have that if black Americans engage in more violence, it is because they have been subjected to more violence and deprived of opportunity. And that, ultimately, is in many cases, the responsibility of white Americans.
I disagree that this is a reasonable perspective at all. Adult people are wholy responsible for their actions. This fundemental fact underpins our whole society.
I would say that this statistic is primarily used to explain disproportionate encounters with (and subsequently death at the hands of) police. It's important to note that black people are also massively overrepresented as victims of violent crime. This suggests that black communities are generally more violent and therefore more likely to be policed. This fact along with others (like the behaviours of majority black police departments) can be used to construct in good faith a strong argument that there is no epidemic of police racism. This argument is not very popular, so it seems to get censored.
>Adult people are wholy responsible for their actions. This fundemental fact underpins our whole society.
You say that is solely fault of the individual, but then say that it "suggests that communities are generally more violent and therefore more likely to be policed". So, if it is the fault of each black individual, as you claim is the underpinning of society, why are black communities being more policed?
>This fact along with others (like the behaviours of majority black police departments) can be used to construct in good faith a strong argument that there is no epidemic of police racism.
Being this the case, wherein lies the issue: the black community or the police institution that trains its members to be more aggressive and fearful of black communities? Keep in mind that only one of the two is in fact an institution funded by the public that undergoes training.
The biggest issue with these kinds of arguments is that it does not take in consideration that black communities are marginalized and target of harassment. This is institutionalized in the sense that the training the harassing people receive teaches them to harass and keeps telling them that they will get killed otherwise. This is not present only in the police, but in other facets of society as well. Look at how many videos of black americans being followed by security in malls and store there are on social media. This shows a pattern that keeps happening, and in unfortunately in many situations escalate to injury or death.
> So, if it is the fault of each black individual, as you claim is the underpinning of society, why are black communities being more policed?
Because effective policing means distributing police resources according to demand?
> police institution that trains its members to be more aggressive and fearful of black communities?
It seems perfectly reasonable to be more fearful when going into a more dangerous area. I don't see any evidence that police are somehow less aggressive or fearful when going into areas dominated by violent gangs with other skin colours. Can you point to some official training doctrine that tells police to be fearful of black people? I'm quite sure that has been illegal for a long time.
Yes, we do hold people individually responsible because it is necessary. We can't forgive crime because a nuanced understanding of recent history and racism. That is a value we hold, but there is nothing "factual" about it, so this is an example of diluting the word "fact" to mean other things.
Slavery was real. Racism was and is real. Inter-generational effects from these forces are real. In all racial groups, lack of opportunity with the legal economy increases engagement with illegal economies. Do you agree?
The statistic is used to explain and place blame upon black Americans for their own deaths at the hands of law enforcement, and saying that it merely "explains" tries to conceal the opinionated nature of that statement with an aura of objectivity.
It is very convenient and clean to ignore recent history and talk about individual responsibility, while taking no individual responsibility for the unequal treatment of blacks that you support with such arguments. By simply citing that statistic while failing entirely to address the obvious and very recent (very present) endemic racism and unequal treatment of black Americans, and placing the blame squarely on their collective shoulders, the only logical conclusion can be that there is something innate about people of that race that leads them to violence, which is objectionable, racist, and has no place in reasonable discourse. There is nothing "good faith" about such an argument.
You will go so far to say that black communities are more violent, but you shy away from saying why you think that is. You will cite a statistic that makes them sound guilty without acknowledging the factors that lead to it being true.
"Soldiers are murderers. 95% of soldiers involved in WWII killed people." Generally, this is true. But we choose not to view it that way.
A statement is not a statistic. A statement includes a statistic. A statement is an analysis, and the way you choose to analyze some data has ethical implications.
> That is a value we hold, but there is nothing "factual" about it, so this is an example of diluting the word "fact" to mean other things.
This is true - this is a value, not a fact. It is a value however that underpins our legal system and therefore our society. The idea that we assign moral agency and total responsbility for action to capable adult individuals who take those actions.
> The statistic is used to explain and place blame upon black Americans for their own deaths at the hands of law enforcement
That's not what any resonalbe interpretation of what I wrote reads. To elaborate, we can assume that 1/E police encouters (E) will result in a death. Much like we can assume 1/P medical procedures (P) will result in a death. People are people and everyone makes mistakes at work. When your work deals with peoples lives those mistakes cost them. I don't see a way to avoid E or P existing. If we are trying to determine if E is biased against black people, we can see if E is significantly different between races. Turns out it's not. In fact You are slightly more likely to be killed as a white person in a police encouter than as a black person.
It's an entirely separate issue from racism if we are suggesting that E (or P) is too low. But the data clearly demonstrates it's not racially biased.
Now the only remaining question is why black people are significantly more likely to experience a police encouter than white people. What we find is that black people tend to live in more criminal and therefore more heavily policed areas than white people. Do you think that police should not pay more attention to more criminal neighbourhoods? Where is the racism?
> You will go so far to say that black communities are more violent, but you shy away from saying why you think that is. You will cite a statistic that makes them sound guilty without acknowledging the factors that lead to it being true.
I don't specualte as to why because I don't know and I assume the answer is very complicated. I prefer to pay attention to folks like Thomas Sowell who have dedicated their careers to answering these questions. I found a good starting point here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5csE8q9mho