Over the past year I've slowly started to realize this as well. What changed? Working for a company that is publicly known enough for people on HN (and Reddit) to comment about it. It has been hilarious and scary to read comments from people who don't work at the company say completely inaccurate things like they are facts.
In this case, it's easy for me to recognize they are wrong. But what about other topics (or companies) I don't know much about? I have no easy way of recognizing inaccuracies so I default to mostly accepting them. Sadly, you need to be skeptical of almost everything you read even when the person sounds like they know the subject matter.
“Media carries with it a credibility that is totally undeserved. You have all experienced this, in what I call the Murray Gell-Mann Amnesia effect. (I refer to it by this name because I once discussed it with Murray Gell-Mann, and by dropping a famous name I imply greater importance to myself, and to the effect, than it would otherwise have.)
Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them.
In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.
That is the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect. I'd point out it does not operate in other arenas of life. In ordinary life, if somebody consistently exaggerates or lies to you, you soon discount everything they say. In court, there is the legal doctrine of falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus, which means untruthful in one part, untruthful in all. But when it comes to the media, we believe against evidence that it is probably worth our time to read other parts of the paper. When, in fact, it almost certainly isn't. The only possible explanation for our behavior is amnesia.”
- Michael Crichton
The problem I see personally is less parts where the media gets easily verifiable things wrong (Generally for any field where experts occur, there are better sources you can personally find.)
The issue is where they report on things that I can’t easily verify. A company I haven’t worked at, how things are going internally in the white house, what X or Y nation-state was caught doing. These are areas where I have no choice but to trust the media, because none of these entities are open enough for me to personally look at them and fact check what is happening. If some entity wants to say the media is treating them unfairly, that’s unfortunate, but unless they’re willing to open up their inner workings to the public I have to default to believing what the media digs up.
That the media otherwise does have a spotty record is troublesome to me. Generally, I think the right course is to find news sources that at least are right more often than not on the things you can verify. But on many things, the media is the only source we have on what they’re doing besides themselves. And while the media is troublesome, trusting that an entity is doing nothing wrong off their own word is even worse.
People in general aren't particularly credible, for a variety of reasons.
As I've gotten older I like to think that I've gotten better at questioning/doubting anything anyone (with the exception of several close and long term friends and relatives) tells me, especially if it is second hand information.
A lot of this was learned through various 'inconvenient' experiences over the years. Most people don't double check their sources and just parrot out things they've heard. Confidence is not correlated with accuracy.
Media's credibility comes not from what it gets wrong, but rather that it may have any uncanny ability to say what is right.
The problem is that media is often right and wrong about things that are very far away from me, so I don't really see the win in "getting the scoop" on anything. For example, the NYT is really good at predicting when there's going to be a high-profile WH resignation or firing come up. It's not like I was going to get that information from original research or critical thinking. But again, unless you're a big player, what are you going to do with the inside scoop on world events?
Arguably, if you did really care about these things, then the degree to which any source provides signal is the degree to which you will tolerate noise.
I'm surprised Crichton thought Murray Gell-Mann was more famous than he was! I would think the reverse (and the Crichton Amnesia Effect is a great name).
As always, the Gell-Mann Amnesia Affectation is in full effect here at HN.
You realize this isn't a piece of serious research, right?
You realize Michael Crichton purposely used Gell-Mann's name knowing it'd lend more weight because he's a "scientist," right?
You do realize Gell-Mann's field has nothing to do with any of the fields that would study this phenonemon if it were anything other than a cocktail party story, right?
If you'd be uncomfortable casually mentioning trickle-down economics as serious national policy, you ought to be just as uncomfortable with your Gell-Mann Amnesia Affectation here.
> I'd point out it does not operate in other arenas of life. In ordinary life, if somebody consistently exaggerates or lies to you, you soon discount everything they say.
I would argue some media outlets are more reliable than others, as can be established for oneself by looking at their track records and following the money. I think this ^ applies as is to mainstream media in general, pick your flavour, but some organisations are trying to do journalism right. You ought to be careful before defaulting to not believing anything you read. I think using your discretion in selecting trusted sources goes a long way in ensuring some level of information integrity. Add to that a layer of fact-checking resources, using your common sense and trying to read between the lines, and you might end up with a coherent world view that you can use to interface with other people. Getting your propaganda from multiple sides can also add scope to your experience of the world from what other people write about it. That being said, I reckon it's a complex mess ... my $0,02.
I'm a middle-aged, white, cis male heterosexual married father that has started and run companies, hired and managed engineers, make ok money, lean a bit right of center politically, worked for the government, large banks, healthcare and retail and lives in a rural location in the midwest.
What you've described is something I experience in almost every facet of my life.
I'm so blandly stereotypical it hurts yet somehow the rampant generalizations that are used to describe me, my values and my motivations are so hilariously wrong the vast majority of time that I don't even bother to argue because there's nothing to even work with as a ground truth.
The most recent reality check I've had is this year when I finally started using Twitter. I loaded up on folks in my industry only to be blindsided with a barrage of insanity. Honestly think that 75% of the people in my feed in serious need of a wellness check. I can't imagine the damage being done to young folks observing the behavior of adults on that platform.
>The most recent reality check I've had is this year when I finally started using Twitter. I loaded up on folks in my industry only to be blindsided with a barrage of insanity.
They created a platform that optimizes for trolling, insanity and outrage porn because it's the cheapest way of inducing engagement. It's hardly a reality check.
A reality check would be going to a conference and realizing that twitter isn't a representation of the general public.
I'm so blandly stereotypical it hurts yet somehow the rampant generalizations that are used to describe me, my values and my motivations are so hilariously wrong the vast majority of time
Maybe you are not so blandly stereotypical after all? Your mini bio doesn't sound bland at all. Maybe you fit the formal criteria for group membership (in the group you describe), but aren't an average exemplar? Maybe people in general tend to think of themselves as more typical than they are? Or maybe that's true especially for guys in the group you describe? That would certainly explain political rhetoric talking to regular Joes who aren't so regular anymore.
Also probably true: the group you describe is so large that the variation within it is large, and stereotypes have little predictive predictive power for individual members.
Same - and although I've been able to resist it so far, it's so tempting to retort, well fuck you too. I can see why people get pulled towards the extremes. The reasonable (in my case progressive stand point) is not good enough for the extremists.
I had the same experience you described, except, in my case, it was Facebook.
People in my industry who I have known for 20+ years dedicated 100% of their online presence to spewing out and promoting such incredible hate-filled garbage that I was in shock.
Otherwise intelligent educated people got sucked into amazing resonant chambers of hatred. It was beyond belief.
I finally unfriended everyone on FB but about a dozen close family members. This was an experience I don’t care to repeat.
>The most recent reality check I've had is this year when I finally started using Twitter. I loaded up on folks in my industry only to be blindsided with a barrage of insanity. Honestly think that 75% of the people in my feed in serious need of a wellness check. I can't imagine the damage being done to young folks observing the behavior of adults on that platform.
Twitter/Reddit are always, Always, ALWAYS wrong about everything.[1]
... and thank God for that.
As one whose political and cultural beliefs are, like yours, mostly opposite that of Twitter/Reddit's as a whole, the sites' existence (including subreddits like /r/politics, /r/news, and /r/worldnews) is gratifying and validating.
If the mass of Redditards/Twitter users agreed with my opinions I'd carefully reexamine every one of them.
>Please note the fact that you've gotten this impression from "reading Reddit". I assure you, reading Reddit gives you about as accurate a portrayal of reality as reading North Korean "news". Did you know Kim Jong Il is literally a God?
As Anal_Justice_League added:
>So wait, your world view comes from reading Reddit?
>Do I even have to explain how catastrophically stupid that is?
We can translate that to pretty much anything that we hear/read/watch second-hand from any source (including the news media). I grew up in a South Asian country and came to the US in early 2000 for college. Before then, I listened to BBC, RFA and VOA religiously and thought what they report there about my country is the truth (we were ruled by the military regime back then and most of the population assume everything the government said is a lie. An example in which people were already desensitized to disregard the government--the military government broadcast a public health service announcements after 8pm news everyday and those includes things like not using too much oil in the food for fear of heart disease. The general public would assume the government cannot import sufficient amount of edible oil from abroad--because of economic sanctions--so they are discouraging everyone to use less oil in cooking!).
But when I came to the US and started to learn who is feeding these news to the VOA, RFA, etc. and how these people and organizations (including the UN orgs) got funding, I realize not everything that I read is true. This became very apparent when I read news about my country (reported by NYT and other reputable media outlets) that are too simplistic and one-sided. Then I stopped reading news altogether since 2016 and quit FB.
That was the best decision ever and nowadays I only use Reddit to follow very specific subreddits (just sports, aww and funny). People are very opinionated about things that they have not experienced, and with online anonymity, people can sprout baseless stuff and easily buy into believing things that are simply not true.
Everything I said here applies to HN as well. There are a lot of very poorly-informed-but-opinionated users here just like everywhere on the internet.
I've noticed this regarding companies I've worked at too. When it involves any knowledge that wouldn't be available to the public, people on HN spout plausible-sounding theories as though they're fact, but they actually have no basis in reality. "Turned out Company X was having trouble monetizing Feature Y so they've decided to pivot and adopt a new marketing strategy which is why customer support now takes so long to respond if you're not on an enterprise tier." And for other random companies that stuff sounds perfectly plausible, but every time I've been in a position to fact-check against deep personal knowledge of the company in question, it's been total BS. Just wild speculation presented with an air of authority.
Do you think it is just speculation presented as fact? Or do people really believe what they are saying?
Even within a company I am very sceptical of narrative. The root cause of something can be quite different to what is presented, which can be different to what people believe privately. We are all biased after all.
Every color science and/or accessibility thread trends towards quoting and reinforcing the same gentleman who has blotted out the sun by writing extremely long (and informative!) explanations of color theory on several sites, in service of an extremely flawed conclusion that is fixed by an hour of Mathematica and experience with actual color science.
You make a good point and I do agree. Also at any bigger company, no one person's experience is completely representative. It depends on the person, manager, team, org, etc. There's no way any one person could know everything about a company.
But my comment wasn't really about cultural or org issues (which can be much more subjective); it was more about specific facts that are binary. I'll read people say something like "x company is rewriting everything in Go because Rails is slow" when it's not true at all.
>On the other hand, I've worked for companies that are in the press and sometimes the external viewpoint helps counteract the kool-aid.
The idea that the drones in a company know more about the company than the public is laughable. Unless you have your own office you do not know what the company's goals actually are.
I’ve worked for two companies now that are high-profile HN fodder. Discussions of both of them have been complete batshit—from the technical engineering to the business decisions, and everything in between.
I will never understand why it’s so hard for people to realize and admit when they don’t know what they’re talking about.
One thing that helped me was when I was taught how to answer questions in a legal context. (Patent deposition.) Every answer has two parts: the answer to the question is the second part, to be preceded by your confidence in the answer. “I believe,” “I think,” or just plain “I don’t know,” and so on. Ever since then I’ve just habitually asked myself, “do I actually know this, or do I just think this, and on what basis?”
Do this enough and you’ll be surprised at how little you actually know.
Especially about what goes on inside companies you’ve never worked for.
It's much broader than just public perception of companies. A lot of stuff that passes off as information is actually entertainment.
For example, news about some new nutrition study typically don't involve any of the hard scientific line of inquiry that actual science work entails (e.g. critically thinking about potential methology flaws, for example.)
Reading about some politician slipping out a gaffe says nothing about what is happening in terms of law making (and nuances are often lost in translation when an article does talk about new laws). Etc.
A lot of articles are filled with rethoric and/or "real life" stories that don't really have a direct impact on the reader other than to elicit some form of emotional response. Contrast to actual educational material that is denser and drier, and can make a real impact in the reader's future when studied properly.
Often companies deal with their own staff very differently to how they treat their customers or their competition. The average Oracle developers probably has no inkling of how Oracle screws over their customers with onerous licensing, for example.
Insiders that aren't in very senior management positions may not even be aware of the high-level decisions being made by their company. You often hear stories of employees being completely blind-sided when scandals or corruption are revealed.
Similarly, I've noticed that employees tend to make excuses for their company's behaviour, casually dismissing bad behaviour that isn't so easy to ignore for everyone else. This is tribalism at its finest.
Lastly, you hear rationalisations galore from people in senior management positions, carefully avoiding any mention of the real motivations for their bad behaviour. These lies are especially important when they speak to internal staff, especially staff they're screwing over.
As a random example, I worked at a large company recently where they essentially fired their entire IT department and replaced them with an outsourcer that charged half as much. I was an outside consultant working for senior management, so I got to see the real inside story. The staff were deliberately kept in the dark, and even outright lied to.
The real reason for the whole thing was that outsourcers cycle employees through every three months on temporary working visas, avoiding income taxes and essentially all mandatory payments such as worker's compensation. The whole thing was a huge tax dodge.
I read an article in a newspaper calling this out. The article was mostly true, but I guarantee you that 99% of the people at the company would have never known any of this.
Being an insider only gives you really detailed information about your own team, perhaps a dozen people. If you're at a FAANG, this might be 0.01% of the company at large...
Older friends lament that you used to be able to have perfectly good conversations arguing about trivial questions of fact. Now there's always some asshole with a smartphone to look up the right answer and ruin the fun.
It helps to look at HN the same way. It's not about the truth, it's about enjoying the conversation.
If your question could be answered by googling, its not really an interesting question.
Meaning of life -> interesting question
What is the capital of Canada? -> who cares, and if you did care why would you want to debate it instead of looking it up? [Its just an example, i am Canadian and obviously know what the answer is]
Now everyone thinks they’re geniuses too just because they can google random facts. You should talk faster than they can type just to keep having fun at their expense. Also, if you talk long enough chances are very good that you’ll find something they’re unable to easily google it. Most people are still lazy thinkers anyways.
It has been hilarious and scary to read comments from people
who don't work at the company say completely inaccurate things
like they are facts.
In the early days of the Internet, there was this widespread naivete that the truth would win. People generally wanted the truth, right? And this "global information superhighway" would act as sort of a de facto peer review. We wouldn't always get things right, but overall it would surely be a win for "the truth" or at least, for reasoned opinions.
> It has been hilarious and scary to read comments from people who don't work at the company say completely inaccurate things like they are facts.
Sounds more like stupidity than insanity. People do this to express an uninformed opinion with unearned authority because that opinion and any resulting agreement are more valuable than facts and boring predictable conclusions.
I used to think this too, but when I look at the COVID and lockdown opinions of my facebook friends, they greatly differ, but their intelligence doesn't differ that much.
I know people as intelligent as me, to have complete opposite opinions. My first reaction was that they are stupid, but I actually know they are pretty smart.
It's easy to dismiss someone elses opinion as stupid, but it's really hard when you know it's not actually the case.
With the COVID situation, I concluded that there are more authoritative, "follow the rules" people, and more rebel, "we hate the rules" people. Thanks to covid I have a clear view who of my contacts belong to which group. Most of them are intelligent.
The same happened to me after I started at a company than HN hated and realized that it’s much different inside that the picture painted here. I became really skeptical of any big claims about other big corps too.
Having also worked for companies that HN hates, of course it's much different on the inside. Nobody twiddles their mustache and cackles when they make decisions that screw people over. They find ways to make it sound benevolent and positive.
Keep at it! Big/impactful companies are great places to learn, and I don't want to tell you what to think. But your views on topics like benign intents and unintended consequences might change after you see enough of them firsthand.
the alternative is that the company or you found a way to rationalise or reframe the very same behaviour in a way that makes it appear positive, after all as the saying goes your paycheck literally depends on you believing that very fact.
Genuinely awful organisations always have people on the inside who are very convinced everything said about them is an injustice, but that can very easily be tribalism. I mean Zuckerberg and many Facebook employees claimed that Facebook influencing elections is a ridiculous proposal. If that's the kind of thing that working at the place does to you I think we can safely discount the opinion of insiders.
I had a similar experience at a bigco that had a minor controversy on HN/Reddit a while back. In this case I was literally able to look at relevant source code and internal documents. Many of the comments were wildly inaccurate and conspiratorial, although there were a couple voices of reason mixed in.
I've gone through that a few times and it's bittersweet. On one hand, it's gratifying to see that my colleagues aren't as immoral or incompetent as xxYoloSwag420xx on reddit claims they are. On the other hand it's frustrating not being able to debunk their blatant bullshit that's been upvoted by a thousand people (which means it's probably been seen by 10,000 people who take it at face value).
I've had exactly the same revelation about traditional media a few years back.
I listen to talk-only radio a lot, they have some of the best experts in the country supposedly, a lot of famous names.
And then they talk about some topic I am familiar with (like Polish army modernization or computer science) and they spew bullshit for 1 hour with 100% confidence and there's 10 people in the studio who I'm sure know it's bullshit but they say nothing.
It's surreal. It means they don't even spend 5 minutes on the most basic research before a 1 hour debate.
I used to read editorials on Slate.com, the articles seemed interesting and discussed topics I didn't know much about. I did that until I read an article about something I did know something about, and I realized they were getting everything wrong. And I realized that they were just taking a devil's advocate position about everything and writing things that were contrary to how things are, presumably to get clicks.
People aren’t psychologically equipped to handle this kind of dishonesty. We evolved to deal with small groups. People would either be forced into honesty by socialization or reputational fears, or they’d be exiled or executed.
Now, you just go on Twitter and virtue signal about some nonsense idpol stuff while robbing everyone blind, and the people will love you.
I have had the exact same experience with my most recent employer. They certainly didn't do everything right, but, generally, it seems they are quick to acknowledge and fix their mistakes, and, certainly they try to be as ethical as possible internally. This company is pretty universally hated across the internet, yet, in the 2 years I was there, I didn't see even a tenth as much unethical or otherwise bad behavior there as I did from Facebook, for instance. Surprisingly, relatively few people outside of a techie / HN-type bubble seem to hate Facebook.
I worked for a company who is highly covered in tech news. The most popular stories and themes knew almost nothing about the reality of we were doing. Maybe one in five voices was correct. It was totally disheartening to the point that I completely stopped reading any related topic. Way off base.
To this day, I am frustrated by misinformation about the work we did. The internet (and general knowledge) is not intelligent.
> It has been hilarious and scary to read comments from people who don't work at the company say completely inaccurate things like they are facts.
That's true with everything. Everyone has their own way to feel superior to everyone else, and for a lot of people, that superiority comes from knowledge, real or imagined.
When general media has some report about my specific field, they're usually filled with nonsense, then I realized the only logical conclusion is that other fields face exactly the same problem, it's just that I couldn't identify the bullshit in them.
Look no further than this comment thread. HN (and Reddit) is filled with conspiratorial rants about journalism and the news media. This is not to dismiss valid media criticism but the vast majority of posts on HN make laughably inaccurate assumptions about the news business.
As someone who worked for a company that's widely hated on the internet (I'm talking front page of HN-level hate), my reaction was always to sigh and let our PR people handle it. I deliberately stayed out of any discussions involving my former employer.
You see a bunch of blatantly wrong things about countries as well that would be obvious for anyone who lived there. As a uncontroversial example, Winnie the Pooh clearly isn't banned in China, given how much merchandise is manufactured there. The "ghost cities" that were reported in about in China a few years are largely populated. They were empty at the time because they were new.
Case in point: Palantir. People would rather spread bizarre FUD they hear in the media than face the fact that they just don't know how much good Palantir does.
I got nothing against Palantir (disclosure: I'm a shareholder) but you do have to acknowledge that people have very different definitions of "good" that factor into their opinions.
Some people find that bringing technology into the government is of course good, others are vehemently against agencies like ICE or the military industrial complex.
The problem is that the masses are not equipped to separate fabrication from reality. It often takes hours of research to actually get to the bottom of a story. Nowhere is this more prevalent and hideous than in US politics. Media outlets, under cover of constitutional protection lie with impunity, consequences be damned. All they care about is hitting resonance and feeding it. It is hard to estimate the damage they have caused this nation.
In some cases discovering the truth has a time element as well. I remember a very specific case from the 2016 elections that drove this point home for me.
I was watching CNN. They featured this story about a black church that had been burned down and the phrase “Vote Trump” spray painted on the side. The network pounded on this story for a week or so. They painted Trump as the racist instigator who inspired someone to do this.
None of this made sense for me. Unless crazy, a supporter of any political candidate would know that burning down a church would not be a net positive for their candidate. Something was wrong, yet it was impossible to discover at that time.
I was so puzzled that I set a calendar reminder to look into the story a few months later.
Sure enough, three months later they arrested the guy who did it. Who was he? A member of the church. Yes, a black man. Why did he do it? Because he had a problem with the pastor. Why did he spray paint “Vote Trump”? Because he thought that would send investigators in a different direction.
Do you think CNN devoted a week’s worth of 24/7 coverage to correct the absolute falsehoods they spread? Of course not! They could not care less! Millions of people walked away from a one week carpet bombing campaign across most of the media with lies upon lies pounded into their heads.
This one event truly changed my views. I started to research everything. I can say that in nearly 100% of the stories I look into the media lied with impunity.
While I don’t consider myself a Trump supporter, I started to understand what the man was dealing with. He has had to endure this for four years. This is a horrific violation of the trust and privileges granted to the media by the US constitution.
Some might be OK with this because they dislike Trump. That is a terribly myopic position to adopt. Today the media attacks those you dislike, yet nothing in life is constant. Tomorrow, whenever that may be, the tables might change...sadly that’s when people finally realize that a principled unbiased position in favor of truth and justice is the only one that can protect everyone.
The real world is usually more dynamic, maleable and workable than the internet has you believe too.
If you believed the internet, you would believe you can only ever use the best parts in the perfect configuration for almost everything. Be it metalwork, mountain biking, computing, drones or any other hobby regularly discussed online.
The reality is you can make do with in so many different ways that if you can't afford the best you can still have oodles of fun on cheaper equipment. Half the fun is learning all this "expertise" the internet has on your own.
Can't afford a Bridgeport mill? Buy something cheaper and work around the edge cases. Can't afford a full suspension bike? Get a hardtail and have tonnes of fun.
Someone is always quick to add in the caveats, but guess what, a new rider doesn't give a shit that he can't send 8ft drops on his hard tail. There are hours of fun on the bike ahead, none of it sending 8ft drops. The new hobby machinist isn't bothered that they can't mill titanium, they are just stoked to be getting started.
Expanding on the rule I've heard is when starting, buy the cheapest thing that won't kill/discourage you, and use it until you break it or you explicitly understand the limitations, so that you know what to buy and what qualities to look for.
I rarely am disappointed by this. When I started learning piano, I got a 100 dollar midi controller and connected it to my ipad or computer. It let me know that I wanted a quality digital piano as my next step.
Agree on this being a good strategy. It also does a good job of covering the case where you learn that you aren't actually that interested in X, or are only interested enough to get a particular task done.
even if I can afford it, I usually find it more satisfying to work my way up through tiers of equipment for {insert hobby}. it's hard to appreciate what makes the high-end stuff nice if you haven't tried the low- and mid-range first.
I made a rule-of-thumb checklist for this sort of thing:
-Is the advice primarily based on every more finely delineated consumption? (e.g. the bikes or mills you mentioned) Then you can safely ignore it as the users responding are well past the diminishing returns curve in their obsession
-Are there any bits of advice that seem to pop up across various sources? → investigate and think about their validity
-What are the main "things I wish I knew before starting" that keep popping up? → investigate and think
Agreed. Funny thing is that even if you're aware of this it can affect you. I noticed this recently when I spent a bit of time watching 3D printing videos to find a solution to a small problem. When I was done watching this video I felt like I absolutely had to buy this much more expensive printer to get any decent results, which was completely false.
The author notes by the use of insane he means different, but is it really that unique for a person to post online or are we just seeing a pattern where there is none.
Books are written by insane people, on average person does not write a book.
Rock climbers are insane people, very few people rock climb so why listen to safety tips the 0.2% of the population who do. They are not normal people from a statical standpoint.
On average a person does not do any one spicific thing.
Everyone online has contributed to the internet, everyone has written something and everyone has excersised.
I've seen this brought up before that only 2-3% of redditors contribute, like it's a bad thing or a unique thing. That number it's way higher than books, tv, radio any form of convenientional media.
I think these examples still support the broader hypothesis that creators are outliers and not representative of everybody else. Normal people don’t write books. Reading only books and not talking to normal people will give you a skewed impression of reality.
Even that statement "creators are outliers" doesn't really seem supported by the evidence from the article. Seems just as plausible that most people create in a singular or small set of domains, but consume from a much broader set.
I mean, sure, only .2% of visitors contribute to Wikipedia, but that's because Wikipedia has huge general applicability. I bet the 99.8% of non-contributors also includes the guy that streams on Twitch 12 hours a day, or folks who moderate Reddit forums, or lots of book authors.
Far from being "outliers", could be that most people just focus their creative pursuits on one thing.
Everyone creates, and most people write, a book isn't so different than a dairy or a blog. You could say TicToc creators are not normal people or Pinterest submitters, but I think the only time we see a cross section that does not represent the general population is when there is a high barrier to entry.
There is a phrase in Icelandic, "ad ganga med bok I maganum", everyone gives birth to a book. Literally, everyone "has a book in their stomach". One in 10 Icelanders will publish one, so in that society it's stastically normal to publish a book. But in any society it's normal to create and publishing is just one out of thousands of ways to do something everyone does.
Thanks, came here to underline the very same, with quote FTA:
> Edit: I guess my tone-projection is off. A lot of people seem to be put-off by my usage of the word "insane." I intended that as tongue-in-cheek and did not mean to imply that any of them literally have diagnosable mental illnesses. I have a lot of respect for all of the individuals I listed and they seem like nice people, I was just trying to make a point about how unusual their behavior is.
The post is about 'how unusual their behavior is' not about 'their (in)sanity'. In hindsight a questionable use of terms, given the author's profession, but I appreciate the edit.
I remember reading about a study to try to find the statistically average soldier.
I seem to recall that after doing hundreds of measurements on thousands of soldiers they found that there was too much variation. None of the soldiers was average in all measurements.
It’s also perspective. People usually underestimate what doing a little bit of something daily actually accumulates to in a given year. Before you know it, you hit certain thresholds. It can appear overwhelming at first glance to most of us, but it’s really just a total sum of daily progress.
The perspective on this can be the shallow assessment that something is insane, or the wisdom to know it was discipline. Take your pick.
I’ve realized after building a small amount of competency in 2-3 narrow fields over the years how wrong most people are about those same topics online. Since becoming aware of this several years ago I’ve slowly limited my surfing to higher quality sites such as this one. I’ve always wondered how many completely incorrect beliefs I have about the world due to the compulsive surfing/reading of my younger years.
I don't think HN is a higher quality site in the sense you are referring to here. At least not recently.
You will see some well grounded, expert opinions here down-voted into oblivion simply because they clash with the mental picture of a number of HN users.
As much as I love HN it is slowly sliding into reddit-ism.
You will also see entire threads of people confidently stating utter speculation as if it's fact. HN is well-moderated and has high information density compared to most subreddits, but that doesn't mean the information is correct. What you see on HN is that both correct and incorrect comments tend to adopt the same academic affect in their writing. If you're not fairly familiar with the subject at hand, it's hard to tell who knows what they're talking about because it all sounds coherent and reasonable.
If you really want a lark, read the typical HN subthread on a topic involving trading, finance or economics. It's like watching the YouTube-educated spar with the Wikipedia-educated. Commenters with real world experience are downvoted just as often as they're upvoted when they try to earnestly correct mundane misconceptions.
Likewise you can't have a bug bounty story on HN without someone repeating the farce that web app vulns have some sort of shadowy black market. There is invariably a comment near the top claiming the security researcher could have received so much more money by selling it to criminals. It is amazing that something so wrong gets repeatedly so carelessly and easily.
These are a substantial number of people here who think they can confidently talk about anything if they just deconstruct it to first principles and treat it like something else they know about.
Sites with "high quality" content are only high quality in very specific areas, and are not devoid of noise. HN is good for getting quality information from insiders and experts in various elite fields (particularly technology related). Reddit is good for DIY stuff and special interest groups for personal things (finance, healthy living, repairs, building things, etc).
But of course the content of each site tends to go far outside its areas of competence, which is where moderation is needed (otherwise they turn into 4chan or youtube). You get a feel for the bullshit after being on the site awhile, and once you're well tuned to it you see it everywhere (the "this site has gone downhill" effect).
Is it, though? Maybe there’s been some regression to the mean as the readership has grown, but Reddit is pretty much intolerable drivel these days. There’s no comparison. dang and his team have done some heroic work to keep a high quality of content here.
> You will see some well grounded, expert opinions here down-voted into oblivion simply because they clash with the mental picture of a number of HN users.
I don't agree. I read HN constantly.
As far as I see, the areas where downvotes tend to occur are where they skew to opinion, or have some tidings to politics. In other areas, HN comments are generally high quality, and have a high signal-to-noise ratio.
I wouldn't also correlate expert opinions being downvoted as just because it would "clash with the mental picture of a number of HN users". That's a false correlation.
Quality in HN has always been in a pendulum. It swings between Reddit and comes back to old HN or better. I think it goes in waves, maybe new users, or maybe it's the weather affecting people mentally.
One strange thing I noticed on HN is that some of my most upvoted posts are in area outside my field of expertise. I do everything I can to fact check myself, but I'm sure I have been wrong several times and there are people more qualified than me to answer.
And some of my posts that are well within my field of expertise stay at zero.
When I get downvoted it is usually when I post an unpopular opinion, but rarely as a result of being wrong.
All this to say that while HN is, I think, one of the best communities, it doesn't mean you should leave your guard down. I'd say it is even more insidious here because you won't find easily debunked bullshit, no flat earthers here. Falsehoods here are to be subtle enough to go unnoticed by an educated mind, and you are not guaranteed to be corrected by a real expert.
My least popular comments are also comments I have made with hard won experience in my field.
My not-very-humble guess is that it is two fold: One, if you only have a shallow understanding of something, it is easy to dismiss things as wrong if they don't align with your understanding so far. Two, if you do have a deep understanding of a topic but different experiences in the field, you may have really strong opinions in a different direction.
Disappointingly they are also usually the least discussed comments of mine and I rarely figure out why they were downvoted.
You’ll read pretty wildly off comments on this site about certain topics.
For instance, it’s gotten better over time but effectively anytime you see comments about how the markets work on HN it will be filled with inaccuracies.
Poker is another topic where people wildly overestimate their knowledge but can sometimes present their incorrect ideas in a reasonably coherent way that allows them to be upvoted by other people who also aren't experts. At the bottom of every HN thread about poker you'll find a couple people who actually know what they're talking about shouting into the void, "wait, that's not actually how that works..." before they give up and wander off.
If you think discussions on markets are bad, try philosophy, especially political philosophy, or sociology. I don't often comment on "very wrong" comments because they're unlikely to get anywhere.
I've found that for all HN detests conformity, more often than not it tends to be a certain kind of perceived conformity, and more often, what is seen as conformity in startup culture. What is often missed in my (honestly) humble opinion, is that this counter-conformity rests squarely in the larger conformity!
To be fair I’m not sure the economists know either, and some of them have even admitted to that.
I’m in bed and on my phone and too lazy to search for an exact link, but for a quick example I can give you the international government-bond market which the theory said that its price should have not ever fallen below zero. At some point in 2019 I think bonds worth $17 trillion (40% of the market if I’m not mistaken) were priced below that zero threshold.
Don't even bother reading anything biology related from here. 1/100 commenters have anything more than a high school biology background, and chances are the article at hand is 5 paragraphs of boilerplate overstatement anyway.
Same. I was working on some personal projects that are not of a technical nature. There was a lot of information and discussions on the internet about it, but it was all incredibly wrong and written with great confidence by people who had zero authority on the topic. I ended up hiring professionals to help and I got my money's worth. My conclusion is the internet is mostly marketing and entertainment aside from a few very specific corners.
> I’ve always wondered how many completely incorrect beliefs I have about the world due to the compulsive surfing/reading of my younger years.
A good rule of thumb, if maybe excessively defensive, is the more strongly held a belief the more likely it is to be wrong. Reality has a nasty habit of being moderate, murky and uncertain. An extremist moderate might be on the right political track, I suppose.
One of the fun parts of being an engineer is that they have to interact with the real world and the theoretical one and learn just how many stupid practical details blow apart theoretically pure ideas.
I wholeheartedly agree. I would add that it is very difficult to tell when to break away from that rule of thumb thus a good decision making is a never ending struggle with a self doubt and a leap of faith.
I think HN is lower quality than Reddit because it's harder to spot who doesn't know what they're talking about. On Reddit the clowns have bad grammar and don't even attempt to substantiate their beliefs. On HN the clowns have flowing prose, a Stanford degree and immaculate clown makeup.
I don't feel like this really changes much with competency due to Dunning Krugerand competency being a near limitless spectrum.
How many times have you come in to hacker news and read someone's complaint about x where "someone" is an expert with a decade of experience in the field only to have someone else chime in with the "well actually, I'm the creator of that project and..."
Unrelated, but the missing space between Kruger and "and" had me go down the rabbit hole of trying to piece together what your comment had to do with Bitcoin. Dunning-Krugerrand is used in certain circles to refer to the crypto coin, in a somewhat tongue-in-cheek fashion.
It's an interesting spin on the 1% of people actually post thing. How many people actually create, and create and share in general though. Since I got into art and sharing it people tell me they also create but don't share it online anywhere. People might want to participate but don't for whatever reason.
The internet does also give a equal megaphone to everyone. Actual crazy things can sound reasonable. The act if down and upvoting on reddit is also similar. 4 or 5 downvotes, which in reality is only 4 or 5 people can bury a thought, essentially censoring it and makes it seem more unpopular then it is. It was only unpopular to those 4 or 5 readers.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. — George Bernard Shaw
In the end I think we underestimate the insanity of “normal“ people. What is considered normal is a pretty subjective question and prone to change.
The problem is that the sites don't have feedback loops to the real world, just imaginary internet points. People who optimize for imaginary internet points are either ahead of the curve or insane, depending on how you look at it.
As this is a throwaway, I will not disclose the field I am working in, but I can say that anything out there on the web is 99-100% wrong, and the things that are shared in dearly expensive seminars are truthful, albeit a bit outdated and they like to omit 50% of the story.
You truly learn when you are out there working on projects in a somewhat transparent company.
There is a reason why experts in a field exist. Once companies desperately pay you to share your skills, you are building up a track record. Anything less is nothing.
A good and worrying example are the many nodeJS tutorials on the matter of authentication or log in/session protocols. Good forbid if you implement that stuff in your own product. The devs posting these articles should and do know better but it seems like they are more after subscribers and revenue than anything else.
This implication is striking, not just for us individuals & communities to realise how niche perhaps opinions online are compared to our own, but also for engaging with:
- Media orgs, that often take offhand/random opinions online and blow it up beyond proportion. Overton Window shifts occur because of this, and political impacts often happen as a result.
- AI models, like those trained off of publicly available text sources online (comments and otherwise).
It reminds of just a few days ago when I checked out a Catholic forum with hundreds of comments and literally one third were by the same person who still hasn't been confirmed. One dude who hasn't gone through an essential Catholic ritual is one third of the comments on a Catholic site. That's just nuts. It's like claiming to be an expert on Mexican culture because you eat tacos.
I’ve read some content produced by schizophrenic people. It’s pretty obvious. I would say that those mega comment guys are as insane as writer or artist. 99.9% of people don’t write books or pictures.
This was true even before the internet. The Oxford English Dictionary owes its existence to the paranoid schizophrenic Dr. William Minor, who did his work from an insane asylum after murdering a man.
Wikipedia says he was a major contributor, but there's a large team other than him.
I don't see any suggestion that Oxford English Dictionary "owes its existence" to him.
Wikipedia? Are you going to take the word of a bunch of internet lunatics?
To be serious, the book The Surgeon of Crowthorne describes it as if their decades-long work was going at a snail's pace and Dr. Minor was crucial to making sufficient progress and avoiding the project being cancelled.
Customs are contingent truths and can only be learnt from others: which side of the road to drive on, language, laws, etiquette.
Neither pure reason nor empirical fact fully determine them. When you hear them in your social context, you adopt them unconsciously and uncritically.
Therefore people from a disjoint graph of social interaction have different customs, which aren't supported by fact or reason.
Well not always, some of it is written by very sophisticated people. Like Q is probably a disinformation campaign. Mixes truth with fact, with the sole purpose to put people off the right track.
I always assumed Q was just a troll, screwing with people and laughing his / her ass off. I figured the name "Q" came from Star Trek NG.
I honestly don't know much about it though (I don't pay attention to most social or mainstream media crap). Is the current thinking that it's a serious and well-funded disinformation campaign?
I think the tragedy of the internet is that it could be all at the same time: started by a troll, adapted by trolls... but also lunatics and those who make a living exploiting lunatics ("content creators", "influencers", ad biz,...), and destabilization campaigns by state players. I think by now "Q" is a complex creature, with its own incentives, beyond the control of any particular fraction.
And the few rare actually sane humans we have alive on the planet today are mostly smart enough to stay silent about it to avoid getting crucified or burned at the stake. ;)
Agreed, clearly a selection effect going on, not just in long content-filled opinions/articles, but also comments, even here on HN.
Use caution and don't take the average commenter to represent reasonable consensus opinion -- in either how you think you should feel about your own opinion, or what you think others think. You have to have your own external sense of what's reasonable or not, tested by multiple sources.
People who are opinionated here are generally outliers on the spectrum. (particularly on non-technical opinions about public policies) Those who feel strongly enough to take the time to write may not represent the mainstream.
Based on the other comments here, and the actual content of the posted link, I can also say that most of the comments I read on the internet have not actually consumed the content they are commenting on.
When I was younger, I wasted a lot of time following the advice of online strangers who seemed to have a lot of conviction in their ideas -- much more conviction than I'd ever had about anything myself. To me, that was a sign that they must know what they're talking about. It turned out to be the opposite. These days, I try not to blindly follow the advice of anyone who can't demonstrate their knowledge to me in some way; if you're telling me how to paint a picture, you better be able to show me one of your paintings.
TFA is about power laws, and how the few contribute much for the many. These extremely prolific contribitors are outside the norm, and obsessive - or "insane", according TFA.
All contribution to society follows such power laws: classical music, scientists, authors, leaders etc. Einstein, Newton, Mozart, Tolstoy.
The surprise here is that social media internet contribution appears grass-roots, egalitarian and norm-representative.
The only twist I’d add to this is that the 1% contributing could be different people at different times. So maybe spread over time it’s a little more even.
That matches how I contribute. I’ll passively read comments for weeks or months, then get interested in something that comes up enough to start commenting on it.
You know, I’ve watched movies my whole life and now literally have a phone that could probably record good quality video to make a documentary or a short film, with platforms to upload and get it distributed to people.
I just won’t do it, but I’m not arrogant enough to call the people that do do it insane.
The use of the word insane has a little too much negativity in my opinion but otherwise it shouldn't be surprising the Pareto principle is at play here, it's the case on nearly every other example of output to one degree or another.
The majority of content isn't made by the Grady Harps and Justin Knapps of the world. Those are the individuals with the most contributions in their respective areas, but their total input still amounts to a rounding error. Given that's the case, the fact that we even recognize people like that as outliers means that the majority of what you read on the internet isn't written by insane people (for any meaningful definition of the word).
The world would be a better place if people unqualified to do so stopped labeling people with whom they disagreed as "insane", "narcissists", "psychopaths", etc.
When you do this, you dehumanize the person, and minimize the positive aspects of their contributions.
If you are not a qualified doctor, please make a new year's resolution to stop doing this.
Mental disorders are by definition relative to the broader society and to other individuals, so they're not that off the mark.
That said, I would indeed rather describe people who spend their lives in specific minutiae as performance artists or zen monks rather than just calling them insane.
It's not like anything we do is particularly sane in any cultural context.
I think there's room for it to be a little misleading without knowing set intersections. Like say someone subscribes to 50 subreddits, submits 2 posts a month, and averages 4 comments a day. On average they're lurking, but I wouldn't call them a lurker.
I could not agree more. Findings like this in regards to first party content on the internet, in other words content written deliberately for consumption or gain of some kind - will always essentially trend toward a surface level and / or biased take. At least in terms of what you will find via most search engines.
This line of thinking I believe is one of the best cases to seek a college education instead of being self taught. The fallacy of "you can learn everything you could in college online" is quickly becoming more and more wrong. I hated college, I was bad at it, but I still value the time I spent working on hard things and having smart people provide a curated palette of application based knowledge. I know people who are self taught engineers, however by their own admission they're likely more focused or motivated than the average and acknowledge they likely closed the doors on many future opportunities given their lack of a degree.
Most of things we use during our day invented by people who put insane hours and effort into creating those things. There is a layer of factory workers between them and us, the only thing with the Internet is that this layer is fully automated here.
Happy New Year @dang! Thanks for all your hard work as always.
Thanks for sharing these stats -- seems like HN is similar to other internet communities. 2% covering 83% of all comments is certainly pretty skewed. I do notice a tussle over upvotes/downvotes when making comments that might be against the HN vocal orthodoxy, so maybe that's where the silent majority make themselves heard? Via upvotes/downvotes?
What percentage of uniques have accounts here? Would be interesting to know if commenters are also a minority of total lurkers.
Thanks for sharing, that's super interesting! If it's easy to dig up these stats, I'd be interested to know—how does that compare to unique viewers? What percent of page views are logged in? I suspect these numbers would be even more striking in that context.
I used to mess around on here with this account I consider to be a throwaway one. Turns out I signed up in 2018 and I have ~1041 karma! Time sure does fly.
I’ve been searching for this post for what seems like years, but I’m sure is just a couple of months! I remember reading this oh so long ago, thank you for submitting it here.
There is a reason why so many people who have made their mark in history are deemed to be crazy kooks (at first anyways). When you start following your intuition and powers of observation (yourself, and others), you tend to diverge from mainstream views.
Not to be confused with delusions and other fantasy based models.
Most comments on anything that isn't about pure technology have a strong political leaning (leftist for the most part, therefore authoritarian) and generally angry about the idea of people and businesses taking care of themselves without government intervention.
>Most comments on anything that isn't about pure technology topics have a strong political leaning (leftist for the most part, therefore authoritarian) and generally angry about the idea of people and businesses taking care of themselves without government intervention.
This is a good example of something else very common on HN - the attempt at a sly anti-leftist non-sequitur.
And this is quite honestly a good things.
Wait before you downvote.
Hear me out the current system is horrible and what it determines as insane people is a product of such system.
Back in the Middle Ages when we had a different approach to mental health non neurotypical people were regarded as different, yes but not as garbage or plainly wrong just because of being odd. Instead in some cases they were even regarded as wise as a result of this. Think about alchemy for example something like that could only have been tried by very very mentally ill people and if they weren’t so at the beginning their handling of mercury sure made them crazy after a while. Modern society easily ditched the mentally ill. However they can give a lot and if that makes a couple companies in the internet mad so be it.
I recommend you watch the following video on Foucault https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLwtCVTcEu-8-3urANmn5Tm6coT... it is an over simplification but it will help you understand.
I also recommend reading the anti edipous from Delouse and Guatari to get an insight in how the current system hides and destroys the mentally ill in spite of how much they have given to history and humanity. The truth is without mentally ill a people society would be different and thus anti mentally ill sentiment of modernity is but a depravity as non neurotypical variations are for memes(social culture and the academia for example) what mutation is for genes
it's not just comments online it's most of the world is created by insane people. And most of those are men because men are more insane than women and in different ways.
Jordan Peterson has a similar theory and the reason that men are more overrepresented in creators of the world around us is because there's more insane men than there are insane women or they're insane in different ways.
I read a study many years ago that men and women have the same average for many things but the standard deviation is higher for men. The theory was men have to prove themselves more to successfully breed so genetics throws the dice a bit more with men, whereas women had to raise the children, and in groups, and so a bit of deviation is probably less helpful. I've tried to find it a few times but haven't been able to, maybe its debunked by now, maybe someone here knows it.
Men worked in groups too. Group cooperation was crucial in low tech hunting and aggriculture and house building and anything. Or simply, to keep it usa, try to hunt for bison alone without horse. So if your theory puts emphasis on female cooperation and ignores male cooperation it is already suspect.
Low tech and behind-time rural villages are big on gender roles. But child rasing is only one of things women do and did. They used to spend awful lot of time by producing things - making threads out of flax (flower) or wool, then material then sewing. They tended animals too, made candles and so on and so forth. Kids contributed from early age.
Theory that limits female contribution to childcare is likely projecting 1950 middle class roles onto past. Just mere ability to sustain adult and teenage humans who are not contributing to actual essentials production assumes basically wealth. It was not even affordable for most population.
IIRC this was a theoretical model of two populations with different characteristics re. offspring production. Real life is more complicated than theoretical models, so it's unclear whether the results of such a model are applicable or useful.
Yes I've thought about that many times. Maybe i am. Maybe i'd not really know nor understand if i was, or maybe i would see myself and think, yes, i am insane! But either way, if I'm insane or not, by your definition, or any definition, or not, I'm okay with it.
And i often consider if i might be deluded or psychotic. It's definitely possible sometimes.
Delusions are just so compelling, and very flattering and soothing to the ego.
But right now, no i don't believe myself to be, and i do believe what i say.
If that let's you feel more or less credulous about my statements, i understand that, and yet neither your reaction nor interpretation is my responsibility, so i can't help you with it, I feel sorry for you to say.
But if it makes it easier for you to hear my statements while believing I'm insane, i encourage you to continue to do that. I don't want it to be hard for you. Please continue to make it easy on yourself, and have a great two zero two one.
Edit: your comment was downsided but i think it's a great question and a very interesting thing to think about. It for me thinking might about other things, so I'll add.
Sometimes I wonder why do I care so much about such and such a topic e.g politics or geopolitics or something like that and I have to admit sometimes I don't really understand why I care so much about it, at first. so I think it could be useful for me to take a step back and go why do I feel so strongly about this? Cuz I don't want to be an instrument of the will of some idea that I don't understand, nor of someone who's not me.
Reddit/Twitter/etc. are always, Always, ALWAYS wrong about everything.[1]
... and thank God for that.
As one whose political and cultural beliefs are mostly opposite that of Twitter/Reddit's as a whole, the sites' existence (including subreddits like /r/politics, /r/news, and /r/worldnews) is gratifying and validating.
If the mass of Redditards/Twitter users agreed with my opinions I'd carefully reexamine every one of them.
>Please note the fact that you've gotten this impression from "reading Reddit". I assure you, reading Reddit gives you about as accurate a portrayal of reality as reading North Korean "news". Did you know Kim Jong Il is literally a God?
As Anal_Justice_League added:
>So wait, your world view comes from reading Reddit?
>Do I even have to explain how catastrophically stupid that is?
Over the past year I've slowly started to realize this as well. What changed? Working for a company that is publicly known enough for people on HN (and Reddit) to comment about it. It has been hilarious and scary to read comments from people who don't work at the company say completely inaccurate things like they are facts.
In this case, it's easy for me to recognize they are wrong. But what about other topics (or companies) I don't know much about? I have no easy way of recognizing inaccuracies so I default to mostly accepting them. Sadly, you need to be skeptical of almost everything you read even when the person sounds like they know the subject matter.
“Media carries with it a credibility that is totally undeserved. You have all experienced this, in what I call the Murray Gell-Mann Amnesia effect. (I refer to it by this name because I once discussed it with Murray Gell-Mann, and by dropping a famous name I imply greater importance to myself, and to the effect, than it would otherwise have.)
Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray's case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the "wet streets cause rain" stories. Paper's full of them.
In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.
That is the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect. I'd point out it does not operate in other arenas of life. In ordinary life, if somebody consistently exaggerates or lies to you, you soon discount everything they say. In court, there is the legal doctrine of falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus, which means untruthful in one part, untruthful in all. But when it comes to the media, we believe against evidence that it is probably worth our time to read other parts of the paper. When, in fact, it almost certainly isn't. The only possible explanation for our behavior is amnesia.” - Michael Crichton
The problem I see personally is less parts where the media gets easily verifiable things wrong (Generally for any field where experts occur, there are better sources you can personally find.)
The issue is where they report on things that I can’t easily verify. A company I haven’t worked at, how things are going internally in the white house, what X or Y nation-state was caught doing. These are areas where I have no choice but to trust the media, because none of these entities are open enough for me to personally look at them and fact check what is happening. If some entity wants to say the media is treating them unfairly, that’s unfortunate, but unless they’re willing to open up their inner workings to the public I have to default to believing what the media digs up.
That the media otherwise does have a spotty record is troublesome to me. Generally, I think the right course is to find news sources that at least are right more often than not on the things you can verify. But on many things, the media is the only source we have on what they’re doing besides themselves. And while the media is troublesome, trusting that an entity is doing nothing wrong off their own word is even worse.
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People in general aren't particularly credible, for a variety of reasons.
As I've gotten older I like to think that I've gotten better at questioning/doubting anything anyone (with the exception of several close and long term friends and relatives) tells me, especially if it is second hand information.
A lot of this was learned through various 'inconvenient' experiences over the years. Most people don't double check their sources and just parrot out things they've heard. Confidence is not correlated with accuracy.
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I had similar thoughts and then quit reading news ever since.
Opinion pieces are even worse they are never fact checked.
its a crazy world that we live in
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Media's credibility comes not from what it gets wrong, but rather that it may have any uncanny ability to say what is right.
The problem is that media is often right and wrong about things that are very far away from me, so I don't really see the win in "getting the scoop" on anything. For example, the NYT is really good at predicting when there's going to be a high-profile WH resignation or firing come up. It's not like I was going to get that information from original research or critical thinking. But again, unless you're a big player, what are you going to do with the inside scoop on world events?
Arguably, if you did really care about these things, then the degree to which any source provides signal is the degree to which you will tolerate noise.
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I'm surprised Crichton thought Murray Gell-Mann was more famous than he was! I would think the reverse (and the Crichton Amnesia Effect is a great name).
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Great quote - wish I could upvote more than once!
Sadly Wikipedia removed the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect wiki page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gell-Mann_amnesia_effect
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As always, the Gell-Mann Amnesia Affectation is in full effect here at HN.
You realize this isn't a piece of serious research, right?
You realize Michael Crichton purposely used Gell-Mann's name knowing it'd lend more weight because he's a "scientist," right?
You do realize Gell-Mann's field has nothing to do with any of the fields that would study this phenonemon if it were anything other than a cocktail party story, right?
If you'd be uncomfortable casually mentioning trickle-down economics as serious national policy, you ought to be just as uncomfortable with your Gell-Mann Amnesia Affectation here.
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'Media' isn't the same as 'investigative journalism' (where a lot of fact-checking occurs).
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> I'd point out it does not operate in other arenas of life. In ordinary life, if somebody consistently exaggerates or lies to you, you soon discount everything they say.
Alas, not so sure that part is still true.
[looks back at 2020]
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When he wrote "state of fear" he had dunning-kruger syndrome
I would argue some media outlets are more reliable than others, as can be established for oneself by looking at their track records and following the money. I think this ^ applies as is to mainstream media in general, pick your flavour, but some organisations are trying to do journalism right. You ought to be careful before defaulting to not believing anything you read. I think using your discretion in selecting trusted sources goes a long way in ensuring some level of information integrity. Add to that a layer of fact-checking resources, using your common sense and trying to read between the lines, and you might end up with a coherent world view that you can use to interface with other people. Getting your propaganda from multiple sides can also add scope to your experience of the world from what other people write about it. That being said, I reckon it's a complex mess ... my $0,02.
I'm a middle-aged, white, cis male heterosexual married father that has started and run companies, hired and managed engineers, make ok money, lean a bit right of center politically, worked for the government, large banks, healthcare and retail and lives in a rural location in the midwest.
What you've described is something I experience in almost every facet of my life. I'm so blandly stereotypical it hurts yet somehow the rampant generalizations that are used to describe me, my values and my motivations are so hilariously wrong the vast majority of time that I don't even bother to argue because there's nothing to even work with as a ground truth.
The most recent reality check I've had is this year when I finally started using Twitter. I loaded up on folks in my industry only to be blindsided with a barrage of insanity. Honestly think that 75% of the people in my feed in serious need of a wellness check. I can't imagine the damage being done to young folks observing the behavior of adults on that platform.
>The most recent reality check I've had is this year when I finally started using Twitter. I loaded up on folks in my industry only to be blindsided with a barrage of insanity.
They created a platform that optimizes for trolling, insanity and outrage porn because it's the cheapest way of inducing engagement. It's hardly a reality check.
A reality check would be going to a conference and realizing that twitter isn't a representation of the general public.
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I'm so blandly stereotypical it hurts yet somehow the rampant generalizations that are used to describe me, my values and my motivations are so hilariously wrong the vast majority of time
Maybe you are not so blandly stereotypical after all? Your mini bio doesn't sound bland at all. Maybe you fit the formal criteria for group membership (in the group you describe), but aren't an average exemplar? Maybe people in general tend to think of themselves as more typical than they are? Or maybe that's true especially for guys in the group you describe? That would certainly explain political rhetoric talking to regular Joes who aren't so regular anymore.
Also probably true: the group you describe is so large that the variation within it is large, and stereotypes have little predictive predictive power for individual members.
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Same - and although I've been able to resist it so far, it's so tempting to retort, well fuck you too. I can see why people get pulled towards the extremes. The reasonable (in my case progressive stand point) is not good enough for the extremists.
I had the same experience you described, except, in my case, it was Facebook.
People in my industry who I have known for 20+ years dedicated 100% of their online presence to spewing out and promoting such incredible hate-filled garbage that I was in shock.
Otherwise intelligent educated people got sucked into amazing resonant chambers of hatred. It was beyond belief.
I finally unfriended everyone on FB but about a dozen close family members. This was an experience I don’t care to repeat.
>the people in my feed in serious need of a wellness check.
Like, uuh, the president of the United States?
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> cis male heterosexual married father
How I long for the good old days when people used the word "man" to describe this.
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>The most recent reality check I've had is this year when I finally started using Twitter. I loaded up on folks in my industry only to be blindsided with a barrage of insanity. Honestly think that 75% of the people in my feed in serious need of a wellness check. I can't imagine the damage being done to young folks observing the behavior of adults on that platform.
Twitter/Reddit are always, Always, ALWAYS wrong about everything.[1]
... and thank God for that.
As one whose political and cultural beliefs are, like yours, mostly opposite that of Twitter/Reddit's as a whole, the sites' existence (including subreddits like /r/politics, /r/news, and /r/worldnews) is gratifying and validating.
If the mass of Redditards/Twitter users agreed with my opinions I'd carefully reexamine every one of them.
As bloodraven42 wrote in response to a pretty cringe-inducing example of a Redditard (who was agreeing with an even more cringe-inducing example (http://np.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/urodq/british_guy_...)):
>Please note the fact that you've gotten this impression from "reading Reddit". I assure you, reading Reddit gives you about as accurate a portrayal of reality as reading North Korean "news". Did you know Kim Jong Il is literally a God?
As Anal_Justice_League added:
>So wait, your world view comes from reading Reddit?
>Do I even have to explain how catastrophically stupid that is?
And as 1foryes said in another thread (https://np.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/be2p5a/cbc_predicts_...): >But fortunately, reddit does not represent reality. If it did, the ice caps would have melted years ago and we'd all be fighting in WW6.
[1] Except bacon
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We can translate that to pretty much anything that we hear/read/watch second-hand from any source (including the news media). I grew up in a South Asian country and came to the US in early 2000 for college. Before then, I listened to BBC, RFA and VOA religiously and thought what they report there about my country is the truth (we were ruled by the military regime back then and most of the population assume everything the government said is a lie. An example in which people were already desensitized to disregard the government--the military government broadcast a public health service announcements after 8pm news everyday and those includes things like not using too much oil in the food for fear of heart disease. The general public would assume the government cannot import sufficient amount of edible oil from abroad--because of economic sanctions--so they are discouraging everyone to use less oil in cooking!).
But when I came to the US and started to learn who is feeding these news to the VOA, RFA, etc. and how these people and organizations (including the UN orgs) got funding, I realize not everything that I read is true. This became very apparent when I read news about my country (reported by NYT and other reputable media outlets) that are too simplistic and one-sided. Then I stopped reading news altogether since 2016 and quit FB.
That was the best decision ever and nowadays I only use Reddit to follow very specific subreddits (just sports, aww and funny). People are very opinionated about things that they have not experienced, and with online anonymity, people can sprout baseless stuff and easily buy into believing things that are simply not true.
Everything I said here applies to HN as well. There are a lot of very poorly-informed-but-opinionated users here just like everywhere on the internet.
I've noticed this regarding companies I've worked at too. When it involves any knowledge that wouldn't be available to the public, people on HN spout plausible-sounding theories as though they're fact, but they actually have no basis in reality. "Turned out Company X was having trouble monetizing Feature Y so they've decided to pivot and adopt a new marketing strategy which is why customer support now takes so long to respond if you're not on an enterprise tier." And for other random companies that stuff sounds perfectly plausible, but every time I've been in a position to fact-check against deep personal knowledge of the company in question, it's been total BS. Just wild speculation presented with an air of authority.
One reason I strongly dislike forums with voting mechanisms is that they tend to reward and reinforce speculation presented with an air of authority.
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Do you think it is just speculation presented as fact? Or do people really believe what they are saying?
Even within a company I am very sceptical of narrative. The root cause of something can be quite different to what is presented, which can be different to what people believe privately. We are all biased after all.
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Every color science and/or accessibility thread trends towards quoting and reinforcing the same gentleman who has blotted out the sun by writing extremely long (and informative!) explanations of color theory on several sites, in service of an extremely flawed conclusion that is fixed by an hour of Mathematica and experience with actual color science.
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On the other hand, I've worked for companies that are in the press and sometimes the external viewpoint helps counteract the kool-aid.
I've also worked at companies where wikipedia has more accurate and detailed information than the internal wikis.
So maybe some of those insane people have - expertise and perspective.
Now not all. A lot of press is fawning. And nowadays, maybe due to algorithmic feedback, a lot of stuff is sort of fake controversial.
You make a good point and I do agree. Also at any bigger company, no one person's experience is completely representative. It depends on the person, manager, team, org, etc. There's no way any one person could know everything about a company.
But my comment wasn't really about cultural or org issues (which can be much more subjective); it was more about specific facts that are binary. I'll read people say something like "x company is rewriting everything in Go because Rails is slow" when it's not true at all.
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That's interesting how an internal wiki could be less accurate than Wikipedia, how big were these discrepancies?
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>On the other hand, I've worked for companies that are in the press and sometimes the external viewpoint helps counteract the kool-aid.
The idea that the drones in a company know more about the company than the public is laughable. Unless you have your own office you do not know what the company's goals actually are.
I’ve worked for two companies now that are high-profile HN fodder. Discussions of both of them have been complete batshit—from the technical engineering to the business decisions, and everything in between.
I will never understand why it’s so hard for people to realize and admit when they don’t know what they’re talking about.
One thing that helped me was when I was taught how to answer questions in a legal context. (Patent deposition.) Every answer has two parts: the answer to the question is the second part, to be preceded by your confidence in the answer. “I believe,” “I think,” or just plain “I don’t know,” and so on. Ever since then I’ve just habitually asked myself, “do I actually know this, or do I just think this, and on what basis?”
Do this enough and you’ll be surprised at how little you actually know.
Especially about what goes on inside companies you’ve never worked for.
Good point. A quote from Michael J Straczynski : “The truth is a three edged sword : your opinion, my opinion and the truth.”
It's much broader than just public perception of companies. A lot of stuff that passes off as information is actually entertainment.
For example, news about some new nutrition study typically don't involve any of the hard scientific line of inquiry that actual science work entails (e.g. critically thinking about potential methology flaws, for example.)
Reading about some politician slipping out a gaffe says nothing about what is happening in terms of law making (and nuances are often lost in translation when an article does talk about new laws). Etc.
A lot of articles are filled with rethoric and/or "real life" stories that don't really have a direct impact on the reader other than to elicit some form of emotional response. Contrast to actual educational material that is denser and drier, and can make a real impact in the reader's future when studied properly.
The fish is the last to know it lives in water.
Often companies deal with their own staff very differently to how they treat their customers or their competition. The average Oracle developers probably has no inkling of how Oracle screws over their customers with onerous licensing, for example.
Insiders that aren't in very senior management positions may not even be aware of the high-level decisions being made by their company. You often hear stories of employees being completely blind-sided when scandals or corruption are revealed.
Similarly, I've noticed that employees tend to make excuses for their company's behaviour, casually dismissing bad behaviour that isn't so easy to ignore for everyone else. This is tribalism at its finest.
Lastly, you hear rationalisations galore from people in senior management positions, carefully avoiding any mention of the real motivations for their bad behaviour. These lies are especially important when they speak to internal staff, especially staff they're screwing over.
As a random example, I worked at a large company recently where they essentially fired their entire IT department and replaced them with an outsourcer that charged half as much. I was an outside consultant working for senior management, so I got to see the real inside story. The staff were deliberately kept in the dark, and even outright lied to.
The real reason for the whole thing was that outsourcers cycle employees through every three months on temporary working visas, avoiding income taxes and essentially all mandatory payments such as worker's compensation. The whole thing was a huge tax dodge.
I read an article in a newspaper calling this out. The article was mostly true, but I guarantee you that 99% of the people at the company would have never known any of this.
Being an insider only gives you really detailed information about your own team, perhaps a dozen people. If you're at a FAANG, this might be 0.01% of the company at large...
"Too many people have opinions on things they know nothing about. And the more ignorant they are, the more opinions they have"
- Dr. Hildern at Camp McCarran.
Great quote from a fictional game (Fallout) character.
It's easy to see things black and white when you're not well informed.
When you're the expert, it's all about tradeoffs, and every decision or opinion always needs to be balanced out.
Older friends lament that you used to be able to have perfectly good conversations arguing about trivial questions of fact. Now there's always some asshole with a smartphone to look up the right answer and ruin the fun.
It helps to look at HN the same way. It's not about the truth, it's about enjoying the conversation.
I never got this.
If your question could be answered by googling, its not really an interesting question.
Meaning of life -> interesting question
What is the capital of Canada? -> who cares, and if you did care why would you want to debate it instead of looking it up? [Its just an example, i am Canadian and obviously know what the answer is]
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Now everyone thinks they’re geniuses too just because they can google random facts. You should talk faster than they can type just to keep having fun at their expense. Also, if you talk long enough chances are very good that you’ll find something they’re unable to easily google it. Most people are still lazy thinkers anyways.
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I hate when people confidently bluff and confidently spread untruths. He had fun, but world is slightly more unscientific sue to that.
It's sobering, to put it mildly.
In the early days of the Internet, there was this widespread naivete that the truth would win. People generally wanted the truth, right? And this "global information superhighway" would act as sort of a de facto peer review. We wouldn't always get things right, but overall it would surely be a win for "the truth" or at least, for reasoned opinions.
Or so we thought. How naive we were.
> It has been hilarious and scary to read comments from people who don't work at the company say completely inaccurate things like they are facts.
Sounds more like stupidity than insanity. People do this to express an uninformed opinion with unearned authority because that opinion and any resulting agreement are more valuable than facts and boring predictable conclusions.
I used to think this too, but when I look at the COVID and lockdown opinions of my facebook friends, they greatly differ, but their intelligence doesn't differ that much.
I know people as intelligent as me, to have complete opposite opinions. My first reaction was that they are stupid, but I actually know they are pretty smart.
It's easy to dismiss someone elses opinion as stupid, but it's really hard when you know it's not actually the case.
With the COVID situation, I concluded that there are more authoritative, "follow the rules" people, and more rebel, "we hate the rules" people. Thanks to covid I have a clear view who of my contacts belong to which group. Most of them are intelligent.
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The same happened to me after I started at a company than HN hated and realized that it’s much different inside that the picture painted here. I became really skeptical of any big claims about other big corps too.
Having also worked for companies that HN hates, of course it's much different on the inside. Nobody twiddles their mustache and cackles when they make decisions that screw people over. They find ways to make it sound benevolent and positive.
Keep at it! Big/impactful companies are great places to learn, and I don't want to tell you what to think. But your views on topics like benign intents and unintended consequences might change after you see enough of them firsthand.
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the alternative is that the company or you found a way to rationalise or reframe the very same behaviour in a way that makes it appear positive, after all as the saying goes your paycheck literally depends on you believing that very fact.
Genuinely awful organisations always have people on the inside who are very convinced everything said about them is an injustice, but that can very easily be tribalism. I mean Zuckerberg and many Facebook employees claimed that Facebook influencing elections is a ridiculous proposal. If that's the kind of thing that working at the place does to you I think we can safely discount the opinion of insiders.
not to forget this gem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELgAZH-Wb44
Facebook? Riot? Microsoft? SoftBank?
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I had a similar experience at a bigco that had a minor controversy on HN/Reddit a while back. In this case I was literally able to look at relevant source code and internal documents. Many of the comments were wildly inaccurate and conspiratorial, although there were a couple voices of reason mixed in.
I've gone through that a few times and it's bittersweet. On one hand, it's gratifying to see that my colleagues aren't as immoral or incompetent as xxYoloSwag420xx on reddit claims they are. On the other hand it's frustrating not being able to debunk their blatant bullshit that's been upvoted by a thousand people (which means it's probably been seen by 10,000 people who take it at face value).
I've had exactly the same revelation about traditional media a few years back.
I listen to talk-only radio a lot, they have some of the best experts in the country supposedly, a lot of famous names.
And then they talk about some topic I am familiar with (like Polish army modernization or computer science) and they spew bullshit for 1 hour with 100% confidence and there's 10 people in the studio who I'm sure know it's bullshit but they say nothing.
It's surreal. It means they don't even spend 5 minutes on the most basic research before a 1 hour debate.
I used to read editorials on Slate.com, the articles seemed interesting and discussed topics I didn't know much about. I did that until I read an article about something I did know something about, and I realized they were getting everything wrong. And I realized that they were just taking a devil's advocate position about everything and writing things that were contrary to how things are, presumably to get clicks.
People aren’t psychologically equipped to handle this kind of dishonesty. We evolved to deal with small groups. People would either be forced into honesty by socialization or reputational fears, or they’d be exiled or executed.
Now, you just go on Twitter and virtue signal about some nonsense idpol stuff while robbing everyone blind, and the people will love you.
I have had the exact same experience with my most recent employer. They certainly didn't do everything right, but, generally, it seems they are quick to acknowledge and fix their mistakes, and, certainly they try to be as ethical as possible internally. This company is pretty universally hated across the internet, yet, in the 2 years I was there, I didn't see even a tenth as much unethical or otherwise bad behavior there as I did from Facebook, for instance. Surprisingly, relatively few people outside of a techie / HN-type bubble seem to hate Facebook.
I have experienced exactly this.
I worked for a company who is highly covered in tech news. The most popular stories and themes knew almost nothing about the reality of we were doing. Maybe one in five voices was correct. It was totally disheartening to the point that I completely stopped reading any related topic. Way off base.
To this day, I am frustrated by misinformation about the work we did. The internet (and general knowledge) is not intelligent.
To counterpoint, what did you or the company do to set things straight?
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> It has been hilarious and scary to read comments from people who don't work at the company say completely inaccurate things like they are facts.
That's true with everything. Everyone has their own way to feel superior to everyone else, and for a lot of people, that superiority comes from knowledge, real or imagined.
Or you just trust people who qualify their statements, moderate they views, and have balanced and nuanced opinions.
I treat nearly every comment online like they are a user who is actively trying to deceive me and it's sad.
I do something like this when a comment provokes an emotional reaction the fits with current societal trends.
I literally ask myself "What if this comment is an echo of a troll?"
I don't impute bad faith to the individual, but that they too may have been seduced by the power of easy emotions.
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When general media has some report about my specific field, they're usually filled with nonsense, then I realized the only logical conclusion is that other fields face exactly the same problem, it's just that I couldn't identify the bullshit in them.
I got that like 15 years ago.
What were some of the inaccurate things said by the HN/Reddit crowd?
Look no further than this comment thread. HN (and Reddit) is filled with conspiratorial rants about journalism and the news media. This is not to dismiss valid media criticism but the vast majority of posts on HN make laughably inaccurate assumptions about the news business.
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I always wondered how do Google, MS, FB, {popular_game e.g Riot Games/CDPR} and so on employees feel when they read that bullshit
As someone who worked for a company that's widely hated on the internet (I'm talking front page of HN-level hate), my reaction was always to sigh and let our PR people handle it. I deliberately stayed out of any discussions involving my former employer.
You see a bunch of blatantly wrong things about countries as well that would be obvious for anyone who lived there. As a uncontroversial example, Winnie the Pooh clearly isn't banned in China, given how much merchandise is manufactured there. The "ghost cities" that were reported in about in China a few years are largely populated. They were empty at the time because they were new.
Case in point: Palantir. People would rather spread bizarre FUD they hear in the media than face the fact that they just don't know how much good Palantir does.
I got nothing against Palantir (disclosure: I'm a shareholder) but you do have to acknowledge that people have very different definitions of "good" that factor into their opinions.
Some people find that bringing technology into the government is of course good, others are vehemently against agencies like ICE or the military industrial complex.
What good does Palantir do? I'd be quite interested to hear about it.
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The problem is that the masses are not equipped to separate fabrication from reality. It often takes hours of research to actually get to the bottom of a story. Nowhere is this more prevalent and hideous than in US politics. Media outlets, under cover of constitutional protection lie with impunity, consequences be damned. All they care about is hitting resonance and feeding it. It is hard to estimate the damage they have caused this nation.
In some cases discovering the truth has a time element as well. I remember a very specific case from the 2016 elections that drove this point home for me.
I was watching CNN. They featured this story about a black church that had been burned down and the phrase “Vote Trump” spray painted on the side. The network pounded on this story for a week or so. They painted Trump as the racist instigator who inspired someone to do this.
None of this made sense for me. Unless crazy, a supporter of any political candidate would know that burning down a church would not be a net positive for their candidate. Something was wrong, yet it was impossible to discover at that time.
I was so puzzled that I set a calendar reminder to look into the story a few months later.
Sure enough, three months later they arrested the guy who did it. Who was he? A member of the church. Yes, a black man. Why did he do it? Because he had a problem with the pastor. Why did he spray paint “Vote Trump”? Because he thought that would send investigators in a different direction.
Do you think CNN devoted a week’s worth of 24/7 coverage to correct the absolute falsehoods they spread? Of course not! They could not care less! Millions of people walked away from a one week carpet bombing campaign across most of the media with lies upon lies pounded into their heads.
This one event truly changed my views. I started to research everything. I can say that in nearly 100% of the stories I look into the media lied with impunity.
While I don’t consider myself a Trump supporter, I started to understand what the man was dealing with. He has had to endure this for four years. This is a horrific violation of the trust and privileges granted to the media by the US constitution.
Some might be OK with this because they dislike Trump. That is a terribly myopic position to adopt. Today the media attacks those you dislike, yet nothing in life is constant. Tomorrow, whenever that may be, the tables might change...sadly that’s when people finally realize that a principled unbiased position in favor of truth and justice is the only one that can protect everyone.
The real world is usually more dynamic, maleable and workable than the internet has you believe too.
If you believed the internet, you would believe you can only ever use the best parts in the perfect configuration for almost everything. Be it metalwork, mountain biking, computing, drones or any other hobby regularly discussed online.
The reality is you can make do with in so many different ways that if you can't afford the best you can still have oodles of fun on cheaper equipment. Half the fun is learning all this "expertise" the internet has on your own.
Can't afford a Bridgeport mill? Buy something cheaper and work around the edge cases. Can't afford a full suspension bike? Get a hardtail and have tonnes of fun.
Someone is always quick to add in the caveats, but guess what, a new rider doesn't give a shit that he can't send 8ft drops on his hard tail. There are hours of fun on the bike ahead, none of it sending 8ft drops. The new hobby machinist isn't bothered that they can't mill titanium, they are just stoked to be getting started.
Expanding on the rule I've heard is when starting, buy the cheapest thing that won't kill/discourage you, and use it until you break it or you explicitly understand the limitations, so that you know what to buy and what qualities to look for.
I rarely am disappointed by this. When I started learning piano, I got a 100 dollar midi controller and connected it to my ipad or computer. It let me know that I wanted a quality digital piano as my next step.
Agree on this being a good strategy. It also does a good job of covering the case where you learn that you aren't actually that interested in X, or are only interested enough to get a particular task done.
This is such an underrated comment. I find so much of this “right way” thing to just be cliquish gate keeping.
even if I can afford it, I usually find it more satisfying to work my way up through tiers of equipment for {insert hobby}. it's hard to appreciate what makes the high-end stuff nice if you haven't tried the low- and mid-range first.
I made a rule-of-thumb checklist for this sort of thing:
-Is the advice primarily based on every more finely delineated consumption? (e.g. the bikes or mills you mentioned) Then you can safely ignore it as the users responding are well past the diminishing returns curve in their obsession
-Are there any bits of advice that seem to pop up across various sources? → investigate and think about their validity
-What are the main "things I wish I knew before starting" that keep popping up? → investigate and think
Agreed. Funny thing is that even if you're aware of this it can affect you. I noticed this recently when I spent a bit of time watching 3D printing videos to find a solution to a small problem. When I was done watching this video I felt like I absolutely had to buy this much more expensive printer to get any decent results, which was completely false.
The author notes by the use of insane he means different, but is it really that unique for a person to post online or are we just seeing a pattern where there is none.
Books are written by insane people, on average person does not write a book.
Rock climbers are insane people, very few people rock climb so why listen to safety tips the 0.2% of the population who do. They are not normal people from a statical standpoint.
On average a person does not do any one spicific thing.
Everyone online has contributed to the internet, everyone has written something and everyone has excersised.
I've seen this brought up before that only 2-3% of redditors contribute, like it's a bad thing or a unique thing. That number it's way higher than books, tv, radio any form of convenientional media.
I think these examples still support the broader hypothesis that creators are outliers and not representative of everybody else. Normal people don’t write books. Reading only books and not talking to normal people will give you a skewed impression of reality.
Even that statement "creators are outliers" doesn't really seem supported by the evidence from the article. Seems just as plausible that most people create in a singular or small set of domains, but consume from a much broader set.
I mean, sure, only .2% of visitors contribute to Wikipedia, but that's because Wikipedia has huge general applicability. I bet the 99.8% of non-contributors also includes the guy that streams on Twitch 12 hours a day, or folks who moderate Reddit forums, or lots of book authors.
Far from being "outliers", could be that most people just focus their creative pursuits on one thing.
Everyone creates, and most people write, a book isn't so different than a dairy or a blog. You could say TicToc creators are not normal people or Pinterest submitters, but I think the only time we see a cross section that does not represent the general population is when there is a high barrier to entry.
There is a phrase in Icelandic, "ad ganga med bok I maganum", everyone gives birth to a book. Literally, everyone "has a book in their stomach". One in 10 Icelanders will publish one, so in that society it's stastically normal to publish a book. But in any society it's normal to create and publishing is just one out of thousands of ways to do something everyone does.
Thanks, came here to underline the very same, with quote FTA:
> Edit: I guess my tone-projection is off. A lot of people seem to be put-off by my usage of the word "insane." I intended that as tongue-in-cheek and did not mean to imply that any of them literally have diagnosable mental illnesses. I have a lot of respect for all of the individuals I listed and they seem like nice people, I was just trying to make a point about how unusual their behavior is.
The post is about 'how unusual their behavior is' not about 'their (in)sanity'. In hindsight a questionable use of terms, given the author's profession, but I appreciate the edit.
I remember reading about a study to try to find the statistically average soldier.
I seem to recall that after doing hundreds of measurements on thousands of soldiers they found that there was too much variation. None of the soldiers was average in all measurements.
Edit: here's a link
https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/2016/01/16/when-us-air-...
From the comments:
"Creation has always been the province of outliers. Has every creator--from Grady Harp all the way back to God--been insane?"
It’s also perspective. People usually underestimate what doing a little bit of something daily actually accumulates to in a given year. Before you know it, you hit certain thresholds. It can appear overwhelming at first glance to most of us, but it’s really just a total sum of daily progress.
The perspective on this can be the shallow assessment that something is insane, or the wisdom to know it was discipline. Take your pick.
I’ve realized after building a small amount of competency in 2-3 narrow fields over the years how wrong most people are about those same topics online. Since becoming aware of this several years ago I’ve slowly limited my surfing to higher quality sites such as this one. I’ve always wondered how many completely incorrect beliefs I have about the world due to the compulsive surfing/reading of my younger years.
I don't think HN is a higher quality site in the sense you are referring to here. At least not recently.
You will see some well grounded, expert opinions here down-voted into oblivion simply because they clash with the mental picture of a number of HN users.
As much as I love HN it is slowly sliding into reddit-ism.
You will also see entire threads of people confidently stating utter speculation as if it's fact. HN is well-moderated and has high information density compared to most subreddits, but that doesn't mean the information is correct. What you see on HN is that both correct and incorrect comments tend to adopt the same academic affect in their writing. If you're not fairly familiar with the subject at hand, it's hard to tell who knows what they're talking about because it all sounds coherent and reasonable.
If you really want a lark, read the typical HN subthread on a topic involving trading, finance or economics. It's like watching the YouTube-educated spar with the Wikipedia-educated. Commenters with real world experience are downvoted just as often as they're upvoted when they try to earnestly correct mundane misconceptions.
Likewise you can't have a bug bounty story on HN without someone repeating the farce that web app vulns have some sort of shadowy black market. There is invariably a comment near the top claiming the security researcher could have received so much more money by selling it to criminals. It is amazing that something so wrong gets repeatedly so carelessly and easily.
These are a substantial number of people here who think they can confidently talk about anything if they just deconstruct it to first principles and treat it like something else they know about.
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I mean, people have been saying this basically since the site began:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=66057
(I didn't find these, they're linked in the site guidelines.)
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Sites with "high quality" content are only high quality in very specific areas, and are not devoid of noise. HN is good for getting quality information from insiders and experts in various elite fields (particularly technology related). Reddit is good for DIY stuff and special interest groups for personal things (finance, healthy living, repairs, building things, etc).
But of course the content of each site tends to go far outside its areas of competence, which is where moderation is needed (otherwise they turn into 4chan or youtube). You get a feel for the bullshit after being on the site awhile, and once you're well tuned to it you see it everywhere (the "this site has gone downhill" effect).
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Is it, though? Maybe there’s been some regression to the mean as the readership has grown, but Reddit is pretty much intolerable drivel these days. There’s no comparison. dang and his team have done some heroic work to keep a high quality of content here.
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> You will see some well grounded, expert opinions here down-voted into oblivion simply because they clash with the mental picture of a number of HN users.
I don't agree. I read HN constantly.
As far as I see, the areas where downvotes tend to occur are where they skew to opinion, or have some tidings to politics. In other areas, HN comments are generally high quality, and have a high signal-to-noise ratio.
I wouldn't also correlate expert opinions being downvoted as just because it would "clash with the mental picture of a number of HN users". That's a false correlation.
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As long as they are still readable, and not hidden, it can be reconciled.
When things start ‘disappearing’, that makes it much more difficult to contrast.
I have been on HN long enough to know that points != facts.
But, yeah, I have noticed lots of downvotes for people stating facts or their own personal observations.
Quality in HN has always been in a pendulum. It swings between Reddit and comes back to old HN or better. I think it goes in waves, maybe new users, or maybe it's the weather affecting people mentally.
Supplement your HN with Blind.
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One strange thing I noticed on HN is that some of my most upvoted posts are in area outside my field of expertise. I do everything I can to fact check myself, but I'm sure I have been wrong several times and there are people more qualified than me to answer.
And some of my posts that are well within my field of expertise stay at zero.
When I get downvoted it is usually when I post an unpopular opinion, but rarely as a result of being wrong.
All this to say that while HN is, I think, one of the best communities, it doesn't mean you should leave your guard down. I'd say it is even more insidious here because you won't find easily debunked bullshit, no flat earthers here. Falsehoods here are to be subtle enough to go unnoticed by an educated mind, and you are not guaranteed to be corrected by a real expert.
My least popular comments are also comments I have made with hard won experience in my field.
My not-very-humble guess is that it is two fold: One, if you only have a shallow understanding of something, it is easy to dismiss things as wrong if they don't align with your understanding so far. Two, if you do have a deep understanding of a topic but different experiences in the field, you may have really strong opinions in a different direction.
Disappointingly they are also usually the least discussed comments of mine and I rarely figure out why they were downvoted.
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You’ll read pretty wildly off comments on this site about certain topics.
For instance, it’s gotten better over time but effectively anytime you see comments about how the markets work on HN it will be filled with inaccuracies.
Poker is another topic where people wildly overestimate their knowledge but can sometimes present their incorrect ideas in a reasonably coherent way that allows them to be upvoted by other people who also aren't experts. At the bottom of every HN thread about poker you'll find a couple people who actually know what they're talking about shouting into the void, "wait, that's not actually how that works..." before they give up and wander off.
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My personal favorite: Any topic involving airplanes will involve 99% of the people sounding very confidant and very very wrong.
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If you think discussions on markets are bad, try philosophy, especially political philosophy, or sociology. I don't often comment on "very wrong" comments because they're unlikely to get anywhere.
I've found that for all HN detests conformity, more often than not it tends to be a certain kind of perceived conformity, and more often, what is seen as conformity in startup culture. What is often missed in my (honestly) humble opinion, is that this counter-conformity rests squarely in the larger conformity!
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To be fair I’m not sure the economists know either, and some of them have even admitted to that.
I’m in bed and on my phone and too lazy to search for an exact link, but for a quick example I can give you the international government-bond market which the theory said that its price should have not ever fallen below zero. At some point in 2019 I think bonds worth $17 trillion (40% of the market if I’m not mistaken) were priced below that zero threshold.
Don't even bother reading anything biology related from here. 1/100 commenters have anything more than a high school biology background, and chances are the article at hand is 5 paragraphs of boilerplate overstatement anyway.
Same. I was working on some personal projects that are not of a technical nature. There was a lot of information and discussions on the internet about it, but it was all incredibly wrong and written with great confidence by people who had zero authority on the topic. I ended up hiring professionals to help and I got my money's worth. My conclusion is the internet is mostly marketing and entertainment aside from a few very specific corners.
> I’ve always wondered how many completely incorrect beliefs I have about the world due to the compulsive surfing/reading of my younger years.
A good rule of thumb, if maybe excessively defensive, is the more strongly held a belief the more likely it is to be wrong. Reality has a nasty habit of being moderate, murky and uncertain. An extremist moderate might be on the right political track, I suppose.
One of the fun parts of being an engineer is that they have to interact with the real world and the theoretical one and learn just how many stupid practical details blow apart theoretically pure ideas.
I wholeheartedly agree. I would add that it is very difficult to tell when to break away from that rule of thumb thus a good decision making is a never ending struggle with a self doubt and a leap of faith.
I think HN is lower quality than Reddit because it's harder to spot who doesn't know what they're talking about. On Reddit the clowns have bad grammar and don't even attempt to substantiate their beliefs. On HN the clowns have flowing prose, a Stanford degree and immaculate clown makeup.
Also how a majority of the world lives on the average wrong understanding of things. I guess society is not about precision efficiency.
There's no guarantee that what you describe as higher quality sites offer much better views of the world.
What are those 2-3 fields? What are some of the things people say that are wrong about those topics?
I’m sure you’ve had the experience of being downvoted for being right but with unpleasant news.
I don't feel like this really changes much with competency due to Dunning Krugerand competency being a near limitless spectrum.
How many times have you come in to hacker news and read someone's complaint about x where "someone" is an expert with a decade of experience in the field only to have someone else chime in with the "well actually, I'm the creator of that project and..."
Unrelated, but the missing space between Kruger and "and" had me go down the rabbit hole of trying to piece together what your comment had to do with Bitcoin. Dunning-Krugerrand is used in certain circles to refer to the crypto coin, in a somewhat tongue-in-cheek fashion.
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That’s why I deleted my Reddit account.
It's an interesting spin on the 1% of people actually post thing. How many people actually create, and create and share in general though. Since I got into art and sharing it people tell me they also create but don't share it online anywhere. People might want to participate but don't for whatever reason.
The internet does also give a equal megaphone to everyone. Actual crazy things can sound reasonable. The act if down and upvoting on reddit is also similar. 4 or 5 downvotes, which in reality is only 4 or 5 people can bury a thought, essentially censoring it and makes it seem more unpopular then it is. It was only unpopular to those 4 or 5 readers.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. — George Bernard Shaw
In the end I think we underestimate the insanity of “normal“ people. What is considered normal is a pretty subjective question and prone to change.
Everyone in the world is crazy except for me and thee, and I'm not to sure about thee - one of my Dad's favourite sayings.
"Men are so necessarily mad, that not to be mad would amount to another form of madness." — Pascal
A thread from 2019: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18881827
The problem is that the sites don't have feedback loops to the real world, just imaginary internet points. People who optimize for imaginary internet points are either ahead of the curve or insane, depending on how you look at it.
As this is a throwaway, I will not disclose the field I am working in, but I can say that anything out there on the web is 99-100% wrong, and the things that are shared in dearly expensive seminars are truthful, albeit a bit outdated and they like to omit 50% of the story. You truly learn when you are out there working on projects in a somewhat transparent company. There is a reason why experts in a field exist. Once companies desperately pay you to share your skills, you are building up a track record. Anything less is nothing.
A good and worrying example are the many nodeJS tutorials on the matter of authentication or log in/session protocols. Good forbid if you implement that stuff in your own product. The devs posting these articles should and do know better but it seems like they are more after subscribers and revenue than anything else.
This implication is striking, not just for us individuals & communities to realise how niche perhaps opinions online are compared to our own, but also for engaging with:
- Media orgs, that often take offhand/random opinions online and blow it up beyond proportion. Overton Window shifts occur because of this, and political impacts often happen as a result.
- AI models, like those trained off of publicly available text sources online (comments and otherwise).
It reminds of just a few days ago when I checked out a Catholic forum with hundreds of comments and literally one third were by the same person who still hasn't been confirmed. One dude who hasn't gone through an essential Catholic ritual is one third of the comments on a Catholic site. That's just nuts. It's like claiming to be an expert on Mexican culture because you eat tacos.
I’ve read some content produced by schizophrenic people. It’s pretty obvious. I would say that those mega comment guys are as insane as writer or artist. 99.9% of people don’t write books or pictures.
This was true even before the internet. The Oxford English Dictionary owes its existence to the paranoid schizophrenic Dr. William Minor, who did his work from an insane asylum after murdering a man.
Wikipedia says he was a major contributor, but there's a large team other than him. I don't see any suggestion that Oxford English Dictionary "owes its existence" to him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary#Earl...
Wikipedia? Are you going to take the word of a bunch of internet lunatics?
To be serious, the book The Surgeon of Crowthorne describes it as if their decades-long work was going at a snail's pace and Dr. Minor was crucial to making sufficient progress and avoiding the project being cancelled.
Customs are contingent truths and can only be learnt from others: which side of the road to drive on, language, laws, etiquette. Neither pure reason nor empirical fact fully determine them. When you hear them in your social context, you adopt them unconsciously and uncritically.
Therefore people from a disjoint graph of social interaction have different customs, which aren't supported by fact or reason.
They are insane.
Well not always, some of it is written by very sophisticated people. Like Q is probably a disinformation campaign. Mixes truth with fact, with the sole purpose to put people off the right track.
I always assumed Q was just a troll, screwing with people and laughing his / her ass off. I figured the name "Q" came from Star Trek NG.
I honestly don't know much about it though (I don't pay attention to most social or mainstream media crap). Is the current thinking that it's a serious and well-funded disinformation campaign?
I think the tragedy of the internet is that it could be all at the same time: started by a troll, adapted by trolls... but also lunatics and those who make a living exploiting lunatics ("content creators", "influencers", ad biz,...), and destabilization campaigns by state players. I think by now "Q" is a complex creature, with its own incentives, beyond the control of any particular fraction.
I think sane people are a myth. If someone believes strongly in their own sanity, they're most likely even crazier than we are.
And the few rare actually sane humans we have alive on the planet today are mostly smart enough to stay silent about it to avoid getting crucified or burned at the stake. ;)
Agreed, clearly a selection effect going on, not just in long content-filled opinions/articles, but also comments, even here on HN.
Use caution and don't take the average commenter to represent reasonable consensus opinion -- in either how you think you should feel about your own opinion, or what you think others think. You have to have your own external sense of what's reasonable or not, tested by multiple sources.
People who are opinionated here are generally outliers on the spectrum. (particularly on non-technical opinions about public policies) Those who feel strongly enough to take the time to write may not represent the mainstream.
Based on the other comments here, and the actual content of the posted link, I can also say that most of the comments I read on the internet have not actually consumed the content they are commenting on.
When I was younger, I wasted a lot of time following the advice of online strangers who seemed to have a lot of conviction in their ideas -- much more conviction than I'd ever had about anything myself. To me, that was a sign that they must know what they're talking about. It turned out to be the opposite. These days, I try not to blindly follow the advice of anyone who can't demonstrate their knowledge to me in some way; if you're telling me how to paint a picture, you better be able to show me one of your paintings.
What was some of the wrong advice you received in the past from this over-confident strangers?
TFA is about power laws, and how the few contribute much for the many. These extremely prolific contribitors are outside the norm, and obsessive - or "insane", according TFA.
All contribution to society follows such power laws: classical music, scientists, authors, leaders etc. Einstein, Newton, Mozart, Tolstoy.
The surprise here is that social media internet contribution appears grass-roots, egalitarian and norm-representative.
How different is this from "real life"?
Books and other non-internet media are written by a subset of the population as well.
The only twist I’d add to this is that the 1% contributing could be different people at different times. So maybe spread over time it’s a little more even.
That matches how I contribute. I’ll passively read comments for weeks or months, then get interested in something that comes up enough to start commenting on it.
You know, I’ve watched movies my whole life and now literally have a phone that could probably record good quality video to make a documentary or a short film, with platforms to upload and get it distributed to people.
I just won’t do it, but I’m not arrogant enough to call the people that do do it insane.
It could be is that the "ultra-productive" folks (except Ninja, who is real person), may be actually collectives, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bourbaki
The author has a point perhaps, but this
Twitch streamer Tyler Blevins (Ninja) films himself playing video games for people to watch for 12 hours per day
sounds not unlike any other workaholic at work.
Replace 'gaming' with 'coding' and you'd hardly get anyone surprized on HN.
The use of the word insane has a little too much negativity in my opinion but otherwise it shouldn't be surprising the Pareto principle is at play here, it's the case on nearly every other example of output to one degree or another.
The majority of content isn't made by the Grady Harps and Justin Knapps of the world. Those are the individuals with the most contributions in their respective areas, but their total input still amounts to a rounding error. Given that's the case, the fact that we even recognize people like that as outliers means that the majority of what you read on the internet isn't written by insane people (for any meaningful definition of the word).
The world would be a better place if people unqualified to do so stopped labeling people with whom they disagreed as "insane", "narcissists", "psychopaths", etc.
When you do this, you dehumanize the person, and minimize the positive aspects of their contributions.
If you are not a qualified doctor, please make a new year's resolution to stop doing this.
Mental disorders are by definition relative to the broader society and to other individuals, so they're not that off the mark.
That said, I would indeed rather describe people who spend their lives in specific minutiae as performance artists or zen monks rather than just calling them insane.
It's not like anything we do is particularly sane in any cultural context.
Is there a good estimate for what fraction of people have a mental illness (diagnosed or undiagnosed)? I bet higher than 1%
Important point to note here is that the Internet is not same as social media much less one specific website.
I think there's room for it to be a little misleading without knowing set intersections. Like say someone subscribes to 50 subreddits, submits 2 posts a month, and averages 4 comments a day. On average they're lurking, but I wouldn't call them a lurker.
I could not agree more. Findings like this in regards to first party content on the internet, in other words content written deliberately for consumption or gain of some kind - will always essentially trend toward a surface level and / or biased take. At least in terms of what you will find via most search engines.
This line of thinking I believe is one of the best cases to seek a college education instead of being self taught. The fallacy of "you can learn everything you could in college online" is quickly becoming more and more wrong. I hated college, I was bad at it, but I still value the time I spent working on hard things and having smart people provide a curated palette of application based knowledge. I know people who are self taught engineers, however by their own admission they're likely more focused or motivated than the average and acknowledge they likely closed the doors on many future opportunities given their lack of a degree.
Most of things we use during our day invented by people who put insane hours and effort into creating those things. There is a layer of factory workers between them and us, the only thing with the Internet is that this layer is fully automated here.
There are around 45k authors/writers in the US, which means not even 0,001% of the US writes books.
Are these people insane? Well, you have to be bold to assume you could make a living of writing, I guess. But insane is probably a bit far fetched.
Are we commenters on HN only 1%?
I just checked. 25% of all HN accounts have posted at least one comment. That's higher than I thought I remembered.
6% of accounts have posted 10 or more comments, accounting for 96% of all comments.
2% of accounts have posted 100 or more comments, accounting for 83% of all comments.
Happy New Year @dang! Thanks for all your hard work as always.
Thanks for sharing these stats -- seems like HN is similar to other internet communities. 2% covering 83% of all comments is certainly pretty skewed. I do notice a tussle over upvotes/downvotes when making comments that might be against the HN vocal orthodoxy, so maybe that's where the silent majority make themselves heard? Via upvotes/downvotes?
What percentage of uniques have accounts here? Would be interesting to know if commenters are also a minority of total lurkers.
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Thanks for sharing, that's super interesting! If it's easy to dig up these stats, I'd be interested to know—how does that compare to unique viewers? What percent of page views are logged in? I suspect these numbers would be even more striking in that context.
What's the motivation for creating an account if you aren't going to comment?
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I used to mess around on here with this account I consider to be a throwaway one. Turns out I signed up in 2018 and I have ~1041 karma! Time sure does fly.
I can't actually read this because I've blocked reddit at the router.
I’ve been searching for this post for what seems like years, but I’m sure is just a couple of months! I remember reading this oh so long ago, thank you for submitting it here.
What does this say about commenters on HN?
"You Wouldn't Get It"
Not just insane people, but also people who in real life you would immediately dismiss as losers.
There is a reason why so many people who have made their mark in history are deemed to be crazy kooks (at first anyways). When you start following your intuition and powers of observation (yourself, and others), you tend to diverge from mainstream views.
Not to be confused with delusions and other fantasy based models.
Blocking bluechecks is the greatest thing you can do for your own mental health.
Everyone here's mad except me and thee, and I have my doubts about thee...
I would be curious how many people on Twitter tweet vs retweet vs just heart
A lot of people are just chasing that notification-high. Like the top youtube commenter mentioned in the OP.
It's scary how addicitive it can be to receive little notifications of confirmation that you exist.
One wonders, who is reading them, precisely?
The other 99%
Well, yes, I agree.
The definition of insanity is submitting the same link to HN over and over again and expecting different comments.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
Hehe, it’s an interesting post so once every half a year i guess is fine :p
I live my life refreshing HN and haven't seen it before, so I appreciate it.
FWIW, I'm a pretty dedicated HN reader and this is the first time I've seen it.
How do you know that different comments are what is expected
http://n-gate.com/
If that argument were true Trump wouldn't be president
It's not really different here in HN.
Most comments on anything that isn't about pure technology have a strong political leaning (leftist for the most part, therefore authoritarian) and generally angry about the idea of people and businesses taking care of themselves without government intervention.
>Most comments on anything that isn't about pure technology topics have a strong political leaning (leftist for the most part, therefore authoritarian) and generally angry about the idea of people and businesses taking care of themselves without government intervention.
This is a good example of something else very common on HN - the attempt at a sly anti-leftist non-sequitur.
And this is quite honestly a good things. Wait before you downvote. Hear me out the current system is horrible and what it determines as insane people is a product of such system. Back in the Middle Ages when we had a different approach to mental health non neurotypical people were regarded as different, yes but not as garbage or plainly wrong just because of being odd. Instead in some cases they were even regarded as wise as a result of this. Think about alchemy for example something like that could only have been tried by very very mentally ill people and if they weren’t so at the beginning their handling of mercury sure made them crazy after a while. Modern society easily ditched the mentally ill. However they can give a lot and if that makes a couple companies in the internet mad so be it. I recommend you watch the following video on Foucault https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLwtCVTcEu-8-3urANmn5Tm6coT... it is an over simplification but it will help you understand. I also recommend reading the anti edipous from Delouse and Guatari to get an insight in how the current system hides and destroys the mentally ill in spite of how much they have given to history and humanity. The truth is without mentally ill a people society would be different and thus anti mentally ill sentiment of modernity is but a depravity as non neurotypical variations are for memes(social culture and the academia for example) what mutation is for genes
it's not just comments online it's most of the world is created by insane people. And most of those are men because men are more insane than women and in different ways.
Jordan Peterson has a similar theory and the reason that men are more overrepresented in creators of the world around us is because there's more insane men than there are insane women or they're insane in different ways.
I read a study many years ago that men and women have the same average for many things but the standard deviation is higher for men. The theory was men have to prove themselves more to successfully breed so genetics throws the dice a bit more with men, whereas women had to raise the children, and in groups, and so a bit of deviation is probably less helpful. I've tried to find it a few times but haven't been able to, maybe its debunked by now, maybe someone here knows it.
Men worked in groups too. Group cooperation was crucial in low tech hunting and aggriculture and house building and anything. Or simply, to keep it usa, try to hunt for bison alone without horse. So if your theory puts emphasis on female cooperation and ignores male cooperation it is already suspect.
Low tech and behind-time rural villages are big on gender roles. But child rasing is only one of things women do and did. They used to spend awful lot of time by producing things - making threads out of flax (flower) or wool, then material then sewing. They tended animals too, made candles and so on and so forth. Kids contributed from early age.
Theory that limits female contribution to childcare is likely projecting 1950 middle class roles onto past. Just mere ability to sustain adult and teenage humans who are not contributing to actual essentials production assumes basically wealth. It was not even affordable for most population.
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IIRC this was a theoretical model of two populations with different characteristics re. offspring production. Real life is more complicated than theoretical models, so it's unclear whether the results of such a model are applicable or useful.
Have you ever thought that you might be insane?
Yes I've thought about that many times. Maybe i am. Maybe i'd not really know nor understand if i was, or maybe i would see myself and think, yes, i am insane! But either way, if I'm insane or not, by your definition, or any definition, or not, I'm okay with it.
And i often consider if i might be deluded or psychotic. It's definitely possible sometimes.
Delusions are just so compelling, and very flattering and soothing to the ego.
But right now, no i don't believe myself to be, and i do believe what i say.
If that let's you feel more or less credulous about my statements, i understand that, and yet neither your reaction nor interpretation is my responsibility, so i can't help you with it, I feel sorry for you to say.
But if it makes it easier for you to hear my statements while believing I'm insane, i encourage you to continue to do that. I don't want it to be hard for you. Please continue to make it easy on yourself, and have a great two zero two one.
Edit: your comment was downsided but i think it's a great question and a very interesting thing to think about. It for me thinking might about other things, so I'll add.
Sometimes I wonder why do I care so much about such and such a topic e.g politics or geopolitics or something like that and I have to admit sometimes I don't really understand why I care so much about it, at first. so I think it could be useful for me to take a step back and go why do I feel so strongly about this? Cuz I don't want to be an instrument of the will of some idea that I don't understand, nor of someone who's not me.
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Reddit/Twitter/etc. are always, Always, ALWAYS wrong about everything.[1]
... and thank God for that.
As one whose political and cultural beliefs are mostly opposite that of Twitter/Reddit's as a whole, the sites' existence (including subreddits like /r/politics, /r/news, and /r/worldnews) is gratifying and validating.
If the mass of Redditards/Twitter users agreed with my opinions I'd carefully reexamine every one of them.
As bloodraven42 wrote in response to a pretty cringe-inducing example of a Redditard (who was agreeing with an even more cringe-inducing example (http://np.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/urodq/british_guy_...)):
>Please note the fact that you've gotten this impression from "reading Reddit". I assure you, reading Reddit gives you about as accurate a portrayal of reality as reading North Korean "news". Did you know Kim Jong Il is literally a God?
As Anal_Justice_League added:
>So wait, your world view comes from reading Reddit?
>Do I even have to explain how catastrophically stupid that is?
And as 1foryes said in another thread (https://np.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/be2p5a/cbc_predicts_...): >But fortunately, reddit does not represent reality. If it did, the ice caps would have melted years ago and we'd all be fighting in WW6.
[1] Except bacon
What do they say about bacon?