Comment by epicureanideal
4 years ago
Sometimes character assassination is coordinated.
I personally only slightly increase the probability of something being true when multiple accusers come forward. I still want to see proof.
What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?
"What if a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations?"
This just pretty much does not happen without reason, and I think it is safe to say that if it did, you are probably a terrible person.
Similar happened to me. I dated a woman whose step sister was dating my 2nd cousin (no genetic interbreeding). At some point we had a falling out about her infidelity, but her emotional sway with both her family and mine were more supportive of her story. At first it was just "it didn't work out" but as time passed she decided, for reasons I don't know or understand, that I needed to be punished. She invented several different stories and spread them at the family gatherings I wasn't invited to, and eventually I had both her and her extended family and my extended family first avoiding me, then actively excluding me from communication and visits.
Eventually I learned that she claimed I was touching her daughter and was cheating on her with her coworker (whom I had never even met). I tried to defend myself but it was too late.
Today she has been married and divorced twice, and I have zero contact with any of those involved. I only know her status because Facebook doesn't stop sending me update email despite deactivating that account years ago.
Point is, the whisper network is powerful, and doesn't give a shit about reality.
I'm sorry this happened to you. I definitely believe it happened to you, without knowing you, because I don't see much reason for you to make it up..
It's a shame your ex made up lies about you, that probably happens a lot.
It is worth pointing out that you are trying to make a point with this story, and you are the only one telling it, and I'm supposed to take you on your word that this actually happened..
Yet here we have multiple adult grown adult women, unrelated to each other yet similar (minorities, poor, vulnerable), trying to make their point with 3x the "backing", and so many want to call them liars immediately.
It's funny in a sad way.
Like a previous story, this is truly harrowing, and I think everyone reading this sympathesizes with you. This however doesn't really sound like exes teaming up to destroy you, this is just one bad person.
>This just pretty much does not happen without reason, and I think it is safe to say that if it did, you are probably a terrible person.
oh c'mon, it's insanely naive, let's dont try to push narration that those things do not happen
When do they happen, and why did they happen?
Edit: since I wasn't clear, I am looking for examples of when this has happened to you, or your friend, or anyone that you have heard of...
Edit 2: also by "pretty much" does not happen, I don't mean never happens. But I think the rate at which it happens is probably a rounding error, and I think a lot of people would rather just say "oh well they could be lying" before even bothering to read what they have to say.
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What on earth makes you feel confident enough to say something like “this just pretty much does not happen without reason” . Some empirical evidence I hope.
> This just pretty much does not happen without reason, and I think it is safe to say that if it did, you are probably a terrible person.
That's not a safe assumption at all.
That's why I threw in a probably.
Innocent until proven guilty and all that jazz, but there will be assumptions nonetheless..
I would love to know what these women stand to gain by humiliating themselves if it is all made up.
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Well, people usually do things for a reason, right? But the reason sometimes is not ethical or fair
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University_rape_contr...
TL;DR guy was falsely accused of rape and then harassed for a year regarding the incident with the help of university professors at Columbia.
I don't know about "a bunch of your ex-girlfriends" but never say never...
> This just pretty much does not happen without reason, and I think it is safe to say that if it did, you are probably a terrible person.
Or you associate with or are attracted to terrible people
People don't go to jail without reason. Therefore everyone in jail is guilty.
Nice stretch
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If a bunch of people who once had close, perhaps even loving relationships with you all come forward and risk their own reputation to say you're bad enough to warrant criminal action, I'd say it's on you to prove them wrong.
Or maybe it's all a grand conspiracy, in which case let's follow the money and see that it leads... nowhere.
There doesn’t need to be a grand conspiracy to want to smear someone. Additionally, what happened to innocent until PROVEN guilty? Allegations are not proof.
I’m glad I don’t live in a country where the burden of proof is on me to prove I’m not guilty. That must be awful.
Yeah, you're right! If enough people say you did something you should have to prove you didn't do that thing. Everyone knows it's much easier to prove something didn't happen, then to prove something did. Show me the evidence you didn't do the thing!
If a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together to assassinate your character, then between all of those separate relationship, there was only one common factor, you.
A coordinated release in my opinion reinforces the statement.
Projared, a youtuber, got his business destroyed and was falsely labeled a pedophile because a group of kids coordinated a release. Unless a conviction is secured, a coordinated statement is meaningless if you care about justice.
It isn't a bunch, it's one other person, and she says he's a shitty ex-boyfriend.
Some people are attracted to abusive mates.
"If a bunch of your ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together to assassinate your character..." you are probably attracted to extremely destructive relationships. You might be confusing drama with passion.
Basically, you're saying Galileo was wrong?
Edit: as I see some people have trouble connecting the dots.
You should strive for evidence and truth.
I'm seriously curious to know what kind of proof you would accept that would make you believe these accusations.
I hear your sort of response a lot, but it's mostly from people who won't change their mind no matter what (and will continue to move the goalposts as more evidence comes to light), or set the bar so high that it's basically impossible to provide the proof they want.
Some evidence that would help would be conversations which were allegedly had, where one party clearly says "Don't contact me any more at all", and then later attempts of the other party to contact them.
This isn't proof, it is evidence, but I think that would help a bit. Even if party A and party B disagree about something that happened, if party A says stop contacting me, and party B continues to do so, that is wrong enough in itself.
That evidence exists, in Yifan's case; i have personally seen receipts. Unfortunately i'm still banned on HN so probably nobody will see this.
not OP and I believe the accusations. but if she would have wanted a) real justice and b) create even more hell for the accused while c) staying out of the firing line of misogynists on social media, and d) get closure sooner because people won't be after her for the next years to remind her, then she should have filed a police report.
Given his situation (see my other comment[1] on why) she could have made his situation much (I repeat MUCH MUCH) worse than what she did. I wouldn't want to know the amount of abuse she now gets because of it and in the months (if not years to come).
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26962280
Have you ever filed a police report regarding rape/sexual assault? It can be incredibly dehumanizing, especially when it is nearly impossible to prove that someone date-raped you when there are no witnesses.
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Seriously? How often does this happen? Unless you are a terrible person, I doubt anyone would try to ruin someone's life like this.
This lady seems to have her head screwed on. Her post doesn't seem to me like she's trying to cause a witch hunt and it seems like she's sharing her story in a logical and sensible manner.
I'll gladly read the post from another woman defending John Pretty, but I doubt that's going to be forthcoming.
There are unfortunately plenty of terrible people out there.
> This lady seems to have her head screwed on.
I don't agree.
She did not set her boundaries. She did not effectively communicate boundaries. She did not enforce boundaries.
When she doesn't get the outcome she wants, she turns to blame rather than introspection.
The default boundary should be "I do not want to have sex with you".
It's even more important when one person is in a position of power and when there's an inherent element of trust (teacher, mentor, etc.) because it's going to be much more complicated for a person to set appropriate boundaries and feel like they can say no to them.
This is someone they looked up to and respected!
Implicit in your post is the idea “Power is equal in every relationship” which is obviously false.
This is clear cut victim blaming.
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I don't want to stir the pot, but as a comment below links, Pretty responded with a statement[0]. He doesn't say this is what happened at all but that's a conclusion one can draw if you just read his statement. He doesn't insinuate it directly but he says they were consensual relationships and the two people are upset about how they ended.
[0] https://twitter.com/propensive/status/1387168037908910085/ph...
Fraternizing and socializing in business relationships is inherently a high risk activity.
Especially for men.
I for one, while having a mountain of ex-girlfriends/boyfriends, haven't left them vindicate enough to do something like coordinate a character assassination against me.
I once had 11 different people, all friends, accuse me of doing something bad(littering). Literally everyone was confident I did it. They all saw me do it. Everyone piled on me to just admit I did it. I said I never littered, that I hate litterers, and that I have never even eaten the kind of food item that the wrapper came from. They got even madder at me for denying that I did it, as if I was trying to gaslight them all.
Email threads were started where one person collected everyone's recollection of the events, who was there, and what happened. Every response lined up perfectly with each other. I don't think anyone explicitly coordinated their accusations, but knowing there were multiple other accusers certainly made the accusers feel more comfortable and correct in their accusations.
I was presented with the evidence, literal written testimony of 11 people who I considered my friends at the time. I was given an ultimatum to admit it or be kicked out of the group. I said I wouldn't admit it. I started looking at each person's recollection.
You know what actually happened, that all 11 people missed? There were actually 13 people in the group that day. The 13th person, that absolutely everyone forgot about, was a person who didn't normally attend the group. He is 6'10" and 350 lbs. Hard to miss. But everyone forgot about him. I called him up, put him on speaker phone in front of everyone, and asked him "Did you eat <food item> last time we hung out?" His response "yes". I then asked him "Did you throw the wrapper on the ground?" His response "yes".
I asked my friends if that settled the matter, and everyone still believed that I was the litterer. So I stopped hanging out with them.
Nobody was vindictive at the start. But they were all so confident of their own recollections that they became vindictive when I said that they weren't remembering things correctly.
Same with Galileo, and many others.
There's power in number, but not in this particular case and context.
Thanks for sharing your story.
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I mean, I've been a giant asshole to a couple ex-partners (read: I cheated), and they never got together to coordinate an attack "to ruin my life."
I could maybe, maybe believe a well-known political figure might be the target of that kind of coordinated attack. But basically a thousandth of a percent of the population has even heard of Jon Pretty. What benefit exists for the group of accusers? An extra spot for a presentation at a Scala conference?
> Sometimes character assassination is coordinated.
People make this claim like it's common sense but I so rarely see even anecdotes backing it up. (Let alone data)
I've seen a variant of it once. This is my anecdote for false coordinated character assassination. There's a community called Get Off My Internet, which I believe is mostly women, who will do coordinated character assassinations, usually of other women. I've run into them by employing people they target. What happens is a lot of them post in a message board about how their target is a pedophile and fraud and embezzler. Then a few others will email me, the employer, helpfully noting how they've respected me for years, want to protect me and just happened to google my new employee. It's bullshit and so, so gross.
But... there's also this other pattern where victims of real abusers will form a whisper network ahead of time. As I understand it, the whisper network is partly for safety and partly for sanity. The sanity is "am I overreacting to an honest mistake?" Seeing it as a pattern makes it more clear that it's intentional. And then for safety, there's a lot of perceived and probably real reputational downside to speaking up. And since it's hard to prove a lot of the accusations, having multiple reports makes the case more compelling, i.e. safer from a reputation standpoint.
So that's why a report like this might feel coordinated. Of course it is. It's just too hard to make this sort of report without talking to people first and then by talking to people you end up discovering a lot of other victims.
I was close to one of these whisper networks, that Lightspeed VC. I'd heard from one victim two years beforehand. She didn't want to say anything because all she really wanted was to avoid him and complete her next fundraise. She took that company public. A lot of this "women are making this stuff up" fear is based on the idea that they get something out of it. This founder was afraid of the opposite, that doing something would botch her raise.
I'm close to another emerging whisper network right now and it's the same thing. "Is this safe? Will people believe me? He's done it to other people and will probably doing it to more people right now. But if I speak up will I put my career and business in jeopardy?"
Sure, in some theoretical perfect world it would be great to have a legal system that could easily and fairly render verdicts. But since we don't have this, what other choice do victims have than to band together to at least warn other people away from dangerous people?
My anecdotal evidence is that the one time I’ve seen this happen in real life, a former friend of mine had a group of ex-girlfriends talk to each other after their relationships with him about how he beat the shit out of them, which he did, which is why he is a former friend. He admitted the abuse to me. They did not try to character assassinate him.
I’ll give these victims the benefit of the doubt.
Bummed I had to scroll this far into the thread to see some reason.
This is horrifying if it did happen but I don't know Yifan and I don't know Jon Pretty nor the trustworthiness of either.
It's disturbing to see HN readers jump to conclusions so quickly without proper evidence. If we continue to reduce our capacity for assessment of a situation to individual anecdotal accounts what kind of world will we live in 5 years from now?
When these things happen, it's often impossible to provide evidence. There is nothing could be proven in the court of law. So we have victims, and no justice in that case, so what are we supposed to tell the victim? Don't get raped? And if they are, and resort to the only form of vindication they have left (openly sharing it), we're supposed to tell them to shut up?
Sharing these things often feels like (and IS) the _only_ thing a victim can do to maintain even a shred of their personhood or agency. If we take that away, we are telling victims of horrific abuse to pick up the pieces of their lives alone, and quietly. That is not how one heals, and it will exacerbate a chilling system of victim shaming that leads to untold anguish.
> There is nothing could be proven in the court of law.
In a court of law it is certainly more straight forward and less risky than on social media: go to the police, make a statement and get a lawyer, then get those people who sent out tweets in support and also came out with similar stories or to coroborate go on record. In this specific case the damage she could (and still can) do to him and get real justice is pretty massive.
What we're certainly not supposed to tell the victim is "hey, you'll love this, I've gotten hundreds of HN commenters to argue about the veracity of your story". I don't see how signal-boosting these kind of accusations on a news aggregator is helpful to anyone in any way.
> ex-girlfriends or ex-boyfriends got together and decided to ruin your life with accusations
If all of your exes and close associates hate you enough to coordinate a life ruining operation, then it's quite probable that you were abusive in some capacity.
> Sometimes character assassination is coordinated.
Yes, you are right. But look at the other side too. How else do a group of people with no proof retaliate against an abuser but through character assassination ?
The problem is the bystander isn’t capable of determining the difference between a malicious character assassination and a “righteous” one.
If a bunch of my ex-girlfriends coordinated a character assassination campaign against me I would probably be forced to consider that maybe I’m an asshole.
this guy seems to be popular in Scala community, maybe somebody does not like him?
meanwhile you're probably just normal person
Maybe "somebody" doesn't like him and managed to convince multiple other "somebodies" who (I assume in your scenario have nothing against him?) to put themselves and their reputations on the line tell lies about him?
How did "somebody" manage to do that?
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What proof would satisfy you? How is a victim of rape supposed to be able to supply that proof? Should women wear body cams at all times?
The devil is in the details.
Every case is different and should be judged on the merit of testimony of those involved and actual evidence.
Due process and presumption of innocence are good things.
Always believing accusers isn't a good principle. It enables and emboldens abusers not acting in good faith, especially people with narcissistic and borderline personality disorders
Okay, can you give an example of evidence that you would accept in this specific case?
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why would they be motivated to do that?
Because he opposed Typelevel and defended Jon De Goes: https://twitter.com/propensive/status/1170098818286784512
Is this theoretical or do you have an example of a case where a woman publicly made detailed accusations which turned out to be false?
Edit: This is an honest question by the way. Thanks to those who did provide some examples.
There are known outliers : famously the Rolling Stone UVA rape case. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/29/rolling-ston...
I do not think that's applicable here. I think this woman was coerced into nonconsensual sex.
UVA Rape Scandal - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Rape_on_Campus
"Mean Girls" (five high school girls make up sexual assault allegations that they later admit were "because we didn't like him", school then did nothing to punish the girls): https://www.post-gazette.com/opinion/editorials/2018/10/15/A...
I'm fairly certain that exists, but it's actually not a requirement to never have false accusations before justice can be pursued.
In the same hypothetical where character assassinations can be organized and bring someone down with false accusations, the same can be true of defending someone as well. Multiple people coordinating by speaking in defense of someone against accusations are just as possible.
I'd even speculate and say there's more instances of coordinated defense happening more often than false accusations, as powerful people being protected from accusations is what started MeToo
Johnny Depp? I'm pretty sure in this case that both might have been toxic.
'Mattress girl'
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_University_rape_con...