Comment by thegrimmest
5 years ago
Isn't it though? Doesn't the ultimate responsibility for government lie with the people themselves? Don't they always have the option of civil disobedience or armed rebellion? Aren't they directly responsible for failing to take those options, thereby allowing their government to do harm?
People have zero choice in where they are born, and after that they have when they reach the age of majority (and sometimes earlier) still zero control over where the rest of their family lives and not everybody is made to be an immigrant.
I hear this a lot and I always wonder which country would you choose to be born in and why? Because there is something wrong with almost every country, and the causes usually lie well in the past. At the same time people do have agency, but for many the price to pay is too high and so they move to apathy or wilful ignoring of what is happening around them. I've seen this first hand. The peer pressure to keep your head down and to keep your mouth shut lest you get the people near to you in trouble can be enormous and that's the first barrier you need to contend with before you get to deal with the billyclubs and the nightsticks, eventually usually jail and being beaten up, raped or even killed.
So have some respect, understand that this is not a simple black-and-white matter and understand that on the far side of the line you do have allies and that their life right now is super hard. Not as hard as the lives in the country that is being invaded so that's where the weight should come down. But hard nonetheless.
Yes, no one chooses where they were born. But everyone does choose what to do about the injustice perpetrated by their governments.
> but for many the price to pay is too high and so they move to apathy or wilful ignoring of what is happening around them
And thereby become complicit. If you witness a rape in the street, and you keep your head down for fear of your own safety, you, by your inaction and cowardice, are allowing the act to perpetuate. These are not qualities worthy of respect. Yes it's scary to risk your own skin, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be the ideal we hold ourselves to.
If Ukrainians can take up arms against Putin's tyranny, surely Russians can as well.
> If Ukrainians can take up arms against Putin's tyranny, surely Russians can as well.
I think you missed the bit where Ukraine is forced to do so and Russians have a comparatively comfortable position from which it will be very hard to dislodge them, and which - propaganda wise - might even play into Putin's hand (not that that should be a consideration).
FWIW I've lived in a country much like Russia for a while when the iron curtain was still in place. It was a complete eye opener to me how living under such a regime can take the spark of agency out of people. A fair portion of the people there were conscious of this and wanted change and were quite literally willing to risk their lives. But the majority was just chugging along in 'everything is fine' mode as long as they had their jobs, their pension and their food on the table.
You always hear 'why don't people rise up against Kim in North Korea'. The answer is simple: they can't unless they are willing to risk it all, only a huge coordinated mob could do that without arms. And absent massive coordination that is next to impossible. But Putin has created a synchronization event, which is why there are such large protests right now. If that flame takes hold it just might make the difference in setting up a sustainable fire and if and when it does I hope that Putin has a pistol nearby so he doesn't end up like Ceaucescu, or in a cell in the Hague for the rest of his life.
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This is naive. Despite what western propaganda might tell you, the majority of Russian population very much supports their government.
Russians have been chased down in a foreign country and had polonium-210 put into their tea for speaking out against the government in Russia.
You're not going to get a very "real" perspective of how ordinary Russians feel about much of anything. I'm sure the Kim family in North Korea has an 135 percent approval rating but we're not taking those numbers as fact either.
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You probably should read the whole thread before throwing out accusations of naivety, I covered Putin's approval rate in plenty of comments by now.
> Don't they always have the option of civil disobedience or armed rebellion?
Yeah, North Korean people are just too complacent and lazy as well, that's why they fail to utilize the option of civil disobedience or armed rebellion. I wish we had someone go and tell them this one little trick that they were not aware of. /s
Yes in fact the North Koreans do have this option. It's just scary and dangerous. People can't hold power without the cooperation of everyone involved.
I genuinely hope you never have to deal with a situation where you have to deal with mental math of deciding to protest against your government almost certainly ending up not only with your death, but that of your entire family (and that might be not even the worst outcome that you could expect.)
>People can't hold power without the cooperation of everyone involved.
Following this exact same principle, people cannot overthrow a dictator without the cooperation of everyone involved. And doing so in 2022 (where dictators have access to fairly modern military tech and nukes) is not quite as accessible as it was during early 20th century revolutions.
Do what you will with that, but I can completely understand people not willing to "just overthrow the dictator, bro, it is that easy", when doing so would almost certainly end in their own death and the death of their family members (who had no involvement with what you did aside from being your relatives), all while accomplishing exactly nothing in the end.
Imo it isn't about "all normal people" overthrowing the dictator, it is about "big" people near the dictator doing so.
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That is not always an option. I think even in countries like US armed rebellion would be classified as domestic terrorism and suppressed violently by the government nowadays.
USA been letting some armed crazies do some wild shit tho.
ah yes - because Russia has had an exemplary representative democracy since the fall of the soviet union
hatred of Russian people has spiked like crazy lately. I've seen calls to deport Russian nationals from the US even.