Comment by jacktribe
5 years ago
Yes, it's all very unfortunate that you have some additional work to do.
In all seriousness, you need to take a step back and realize that this is a minimal price that we all have to pay, that includes those of us in the western world, to enjoy the freedoms that we have every day.
The current events have a negative impact on the entire world, and it's already bad enough that we have let it get this far and a country found itself defending democracy for the entire world.
Please don't attack another user with snark or flames when they're in a difficult situation. The fact that others are in still more difficult situations does not justify this.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30507142.
I don't see how this isn't anything but virtue signalling, and forcing citizens to bear the cost.
Being cut off from the rest of the world's financial system, and with a collapsing ruble, not to mention a failing financial sector, how do you think people are going to find alternative infrastructure providers? What critical infrastructure will this take offline? What untold damage will this cause to civilians that have effectively no say against their authoritarian government?
It's one thing for governments to be handing down sanctions and interrupting "business as usual", as that is their perogative and they are accountable to their citizens by way of voting. In my opinion, though, it is another thing entirely to celebrate businesses acting in ways to inflict the most suffering possible on the people least able to handle such abuse. There is no accountability there.
> it is another thing entirely to celebrate businesses acting in ways to inflict the most suffering possible on the people least able to handle such abuse
No one is celebrating, I assure you. The crumbling economy, all of the restrictions, their children captured abroad, all these facts amount to a serious conversation amongst Russian people that can lead to a critical mass of people going into the streets and protesting. Look at December 1989 Romania, for a textbook example of people pushed too far with nothing to lose, taking matters in their own hands. It can happen again, but not so long as the Russian people don't feel the sting. It needs to be delivered fast and hard for people to trust that the great majority is with them.
Was Romania under any sanctions at the time?
People do overthrow lousy governments. I have yet to see proof that it happens as a consequence of sanctions.
Sanctions lead to people scrambling for survival, and those in power profiting further.
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I notice there is a lot of they in your statement.
What about you ?
> I don't see how this isn't anything but virtue signalling, and forcing citizens to bear the cost.
It is the same citizens who are ultimately funding the Russian military with their taxes. I understand it isn't by individual choice, but that's the way it is and it is up to them to fix it.
Totally agree. It's amazing how many in this thread don't understand this principle.
The term "virtue signaling" is used so broadly as to be almost meaningless. One might even got to say that anytime someone uses the term "virtue signaling", it's virtue signaling. (sigh)
The accountability happens when the pressure the Russian people feel as a result of the actions their leadership has taken is greater than they can bear, and they replace their leadership in response.
"Pressuring" civilians into standing up to armed interior police willing to use lethal force and torture, in order to effect regime change, seems of questionable morality.
We change regimes in democracies by voting.
They change regimes in autocracies by dying.
That doesn't feel like a fair expectation.
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> minimal price that we all have to pay, that includes those of us in the western world
I was talking to a Russian friend recently who also mentioned trying to stockpile some food while it was affordable, just like the parent commenter. I think telling the average Russian citizen that their food insecurity is a minimal price they have to pay comes off as a bit smug.
And the Ukrainians who are dead or have had their homes and communities bombed? Who are now refuges or fighting for their life and country?
I don't think it's an either/or thing; I think it's possible to have empathy for both anti-war Russian citizens, and Ukrainian citizens.
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The point is that this has to happen for change to occur from within. Change of regime from outside with be far more disastrous to the Russian people.
What if the regime doesn't change though? I hate to say it but if China invaded Taiwan tomorrow and every western tech company started banning Chinese users, 99% of them wouldn't even notice. By rushing to deplatform an entire nationality without nuance we're accelerating the decline of western tech hegemony and won't have any more cards to play if things get worse. A more sensible approach would be sanctions on elites while maintaining pipelines of information to Russians. If Russians get cut off from the world they will become more like North Koreans.
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Additional work?
In the west I think we need to realize that the situation is extremely unfortunate for Russians that are victims of the dictatorship (vs. those that actually believe in the party line), who have no easy way out of the country, and are absolutely screwed ATM.
Obviously worlds better than being under fire in the Ukraine, but I wouldn't throw the average Russian in the "minimal price we all have to pay" bucket.
Comparatively everyone in the west has it real easy (for now at any rate).
Yes, they do have to pay a higher price, because the problem stems from there and they now have a small window opportunity for a regime change.
They are at a point where they can reach critical mass. If we don't push enough this can be dragged out to a North Korea like status, and that is going to be a lot worse for everyone.