Comment by jabbany
4 years ago
There is an interesting meta discussion here but the parent is over-simplifying things.
> How we can allow a Chinese social media app in the west, while any non-Chinese social media apps aren't allowed there?
Easy. The laws are different.
"Non-Chinese social media app"s are not banned in China, just that if you run one it need to be licensed (https://beian.miit.gov.cn/) first before you can start servicing. Licensing is difficult since there's requirements about keeping data domestic, having physical presence should legal enforcement be necessary (i.e. there are people to arrest if something goes wrong), and complying with takedown requests (both copyright and political). Western big tech companies (rightfully) do not want to comply, so they do not get licenses, and thus have no presence. Attempting to "just provide service" without a license will result in blacklisting via the GFW as enforcement.
"Allow a Chinese social media app in the west" -- this is also more complex. If TikTok or friends violate laws in the west they are also liable for any punishment. For example, TikTok and WeChat comply with the GDPR in Europe and keep EU data local to the EU. If they didn't they'd be looking at a potentially huge fine and possibly getting banned. Similarly they also comply with copyright stuff like DMCAs. If they didn't, the FBI can seize their domain and compel ISPs to not resolve it just like the GFW (this has precedent and has been done before).
So the meta question becomes: Are the current protections in the west sufficient? To which the answer is probably no.
But in any case, in the free world, whether a Chinese social media app's presence is allowed to be maintained should not be dictated by ideology, but rather through real demonstrated evidence of misbehavior and/or harm (which is why research like this is important).
I appreciate your thoughtful response. I think that Chinese apps should at least be held to the same standards, as they are there, and I think it's reasonable to assume that they currently aren't.
The thing is, and I don't believe this to be controversial, that China has built a digital database of all (or most) of its citizens based on the data they collected. Now the question is, do they stop there, or do they have a file on all of us? The technology is cheap, and I think based on video data etc that they collect through apps like this, they might well build a social graph of the rest of the world (i.e. who does exist, what are their interests/beliefs/political affiliations, and what are the relations between those entities.)
The repercussions of using such apps might be, that they have info on citizens in the rest of the world, which might allow them to nudge people into giving into their political goals (this has already been happening after people posted stuff critical of China on sites like Twitter) - and I think that we have to ask ourselves how that could threaten our democracy.
> I think it's reasonable to assume that they currently aren't.
I don't see any reason they wouldn't be? If anything they probably face more scrutiny than US domestic companies exactly because they are foreign. The problem (at least in the US) is just that behavior like in this post should be illegal but it isn't (yet). They _feel_ ethically wrong but there's no punishment for doing it.
> (...) that China has built a digital database of all (or most) of its citizens based on the data they collected (...)
But so do companies like Google, or Meta, or Clearview etc... This is a real problem but Chinese companies are hardly alone here and they aren't even the first to start mass data collection. As for the domestic data collection and association, that's largely a domestic issue that their citizens need to figure out for themselves. For what it's worth, most countries do at least a little bit of domestic surveillance (as seen from the Snowden leaks), China just has a much more robust system with fewer safeguards.
> I think that we have to ask ourselves how that could threaten our democracy.
That is a good question and I think it should be asked of all tech companies.
Facebook had the whole election meddling thing which started the gears turning in legislative branches of how we might reign in companies as instruments that threaten democracy, and by now we all more or less assume countries like Russia and China will try to exert influence in other countries. However, getting the regulations right is hard even though it is also important. We'll need both experts in the technology (re: this whole thread about discreet behavior tracking that a layperson would never identify) and in the legal space to figure out how to protect individuals. This is not the cold war era. It should not be a battle of ideology. We should instead figure out how to protect people from institutions of power, be it hostile foreign powers, domestic tyranny, or just corporate greed.
The US already has said files, no? That's what the Snowden whistleblowing was about.
Only data specifically about Americans(and Americans alone, contact with a foreigner is open to data collection) that hasn't traveled in and out of the country is protected from the spies, if the spies are to be trusted. They're already known to be lying to Congress, so chances are the American government has a file with all of your social media activity, except maybe your tic tock usage.
I see no reason to consider the Chinese apps special in this regard. American domestic apps have already shown themselves to be dangerous to american democracy, and the American government can do much worse things to Americans than the Chinese government can. The data collection itself is bad, but no government will cut off its own spies
> do they have a file on all of us
I would be astonished if they did not. The data is freely available and inexpensive, I imagine they are hoovering it all up constantly.