Comment by danpalmer
3 years ago
It's sad that it took legislation to make this happen, but I can see why.
I worked in a pseudo-Apple-store during the height of the 30-pin dock connector and I sold so many cases, speaker docks, charging cables, and all sorts of weird accessories that were built for the 30-pin connector.
Then Apple switched to Lightning. It was better in every. single. way. And yet people got burnt. There was so much hardware that was now incompatible that people understandably didn't recognise the benefits of the Lightning connector.
This mattered far less for other companies because of the lack of brand recognition. If someone switches from one non-Apple device to another non-Apple device, they don't necessarily expect to keep using the same cables, and back in the day every manufacturer had their own. The expectations of Apple were higher only because of that brand recognition.
Sadly, the fact that so many got burnt in the Lightning transition means that there is _still_, a decade later, a resentment among many. I've spoken to so many people who don't like Apple devices, who when asked why say things like "they're always changing their cables". It's obviously not true, but to most people who aren't familiar it might as well be.
I think this even burnt the MFI manufacturers. 30-pin compatible speaker docks and other accessories were very widely available, but there are far fewer devices made for Lightning. There are other factors here like the rise of Bluetooth and Wifi enabled devices, and the demise of the iPod, but I think manufacturers also knew customers didn't want Apple specific connector hardware anymore – I know I didn't.
Ironically, the long-delayed USB-C transition has probably had the opposite effect. In attempting to compensate for the public view of Apple changing connectors, they've become somewhat known as being the company with the wrong connectors. It's sad, given Apple's core role in defining the USB-C spec, but it's understandable.
I look forward to a USB-C iPhone. It's a shame it took legislation to make it happen, but I understand why given how long customers' memories are about the 30-pin connector. As much as we'd like to think USB-C was the "right answer" several years ago, it's a bit more complicated than that.
Two key differences vs last time:
1. As you mentioned, most accessories have moved to wireless. I still (usually) use a physical cable for charging, and I guess I have a 3.5mm dongle, but I think those are the only two things I've plugged into my iPhone in years. Docks with a physical port, in particular, were super popular 10+ years ago and don't really exist anymore. People won't be throwing away speakers.
2. They aren't switching to a new proprietary port, they're switching to a standard port. Which means there's already a thriving ecosystem of accessories that will now be usable with iPhones (some of which people may already have, for use with their other devices!)
I'm more cynical in my interpretation of Apple's motives: I think they just wanted those licensing dollars
> I'm more cynical in my interpretation of Apple's motives: I think they just wanted those licensing dollars
They've switched every other non-iPhone device to USB-C. The more plausible interpretation would be that they don't want to piss off a core constituency of customers who've built up 10 years of Lightning cables. The number of people who care about standardizing on USB-C are definitely less than the vocal folks who will now complain loudly that Apple just forced them to buy a whole bunch of expensive new cables.
At least USB-C is more durable by far than Micro USB was, even if it's not as durable as Lightning. Nothing can fix the stupidity of USB-C cables, though. What a mess.
> ”The number of people who care about standardizing on USB-C are definitely less than the vocal folks who will now complain loudly that Apple just forced them to buy a whole bunch of expensive new cables.”
I don’t think that’s true. Even hard core iPhone users likely already have multiple USB-C devices and cables, and the existing chargers are already USB (A or C) and will continue to work just fine. Apple does still include a charge cable in the iPhone box.
It’s not like the old days when people were invested into all kinds of accessories with 30-pin connectors. Most people just don’t care that much about a few Lightning cables and will be glad to rid of them.
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> They've switched every other non-iPhone device to USB-C
The only device I know of that started out on lighting and switched to USB-C was the iPad, and that was specifically because they're pushing it as a "creator" device, for which people needed to be able to plug in things like flash drives, SD card adaptors, cameras, mice and keyboards, etc. There's significantly less drive for those kinds of accessories on iPhone
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Maybe? The USB specifications calls for USB Micro-B to have the same 10,000 connect/disconnect cycles as USB-C:
-----------------------------------
Table 3-1 USB Electrical, Mechanical and Environmental Compliance Standards
Performance Requirement
1500 cycles
5000 cycles for Mini “B”
10,000 cycles for Micro series
10,000 cycles for ruggedized Standard “A”
Cycle rate of 500 cycles per hour if done automatically and 200 if manual cycle
-----------------------------------
https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/CabConn20.pdf
From what I'm guessing, a lot of the problems can stem from either parts that don't meet the spec because it saves some money, or sloppy QC on the solder joints. Unless I'm missing something, USB-C doesn't inherently solve problems of manufacturers picking out of specification parts or bad QC.
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> Nothing can fix the stupidity of USB-C cables, though
What is the stupidity of USB-C cables? Honestly don't know, simply not up on USB or cable technology
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I just want my Mac and my iPhone to use the same charger. It’s not necessarily about the spending.
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I’m more hopeful that they’ll actually include drivers for those devices (probably not). It’d be nice to hook up a screen via hdmi instead of needing an Apple TV. Or plugging in a dock with regular mouse/keyboard attached.
USB-C iPads already support all of that, and you can already do those things today on current iPhones with an appropriate adapter -- search for "Lightning Digital AV Adapter" for an example.
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I already use my laptop charger for giving the phone extra juice when I'm sitting, now my wife will be able to do the same with her iPhone. Same in the car, only one cable.
it's also a blue bubble/green bubble thing. lightning is more exclusive and therefore better
Something I found interesting when discussing this with my wife..
All my friends are tech heads and champing at the bit to have usb-c in their iPhones.
But when she asked me why people were mad about the switch to usb-c it took me by surprise. Then she showed me a lot of online responses from non technical people who see the change of port as annoying and wasteful because now all their stuff won’t work without adapters.
I think it’s really interesting to see the difference in mind sets between different demographics.
But even those non-tech people should have some USB-C cables lying around at this point
Android phones have used USB-C cables for many years. The Nintendo switch and PS5 controllers use USB-C cables. Chromebooks use USB-C cables. The alarm clock I just bought uses a USB-C cable. My keyboard uses a USB-C cable. Every MacBook made in the last five years (and most iPads sold in the last couple years) uses a USB-C cable.
It's very possible, if they're nontechnical, that they already have cables that will work with it and don't even realize it (which to be fair might be its own problem, but it's certainly a smaller problem)
We have 5 iPhones (no usb-c connectors), 5 tablets (no usb-c connectors), 1 desktop (no usb-c port), and 6 laptops (only 1 of which has a usb-c charger). So, we have a grand total of 1 usb-c cable in the house. And that one is already in use charging a laptop. I sure hope Apple is planning on including a cable and charger with future iPhones so I don’t have to purchase a separate cable.
Frankly, hardware doesn’t become as obsolete as fast anymore, so there has been little reason to purchase usb-c replacements for our non-usb-c hardware.
I have about twelve Lightning cables (2 in car, 4 permanently installed at convenient locations, a few in my work bag, an couple in another bag and some currently missing) and one USB-C cable, which I use for charging my laptop.
At some point soon, perhaps when I get a new iPhone, I am going to have to start buying more USB-C cables.
I will then spend years looking at the end of cables to see what the connector looks like. Just like USB-A and B where I had to make sure they were the right way up, which takes at least three attempts.
At some point, my iPad and iPhone - and my family’s iPads and iPhones - will all be dead, and replaced with USB-C versions.
We are quite good at hanging onto devices until they can no longer have new safe batteries (installed by Apple) or have no real use, so this could be around ten to fifteen years.
This drive by the EU seems to mainly talk about power adapters, and how it’s a waste to have separate ones, but all the power adapters I use for phone and iPad have USB-A sockets.
With USB-C on both ends of cables, I expect I’ll have to buy some new power adapters soon. I will then have to have two adapters everywhere (one for my USB-A to Lightning cables), or buy lots of USB-C to Lightning cables for the transition period. To go with the USB-C cables for post transition period.
I’m not at all inconvenienced by Lightning and not at all desperate to have USB-C, and USB-C will be replaced by USB-D in a few years, probably many years before the Lightning devices have given up, to USB-C, so I will probably carry several Lightning to USB-A, several Lightning to USB-C, several Lightning to USB-D, several USB-C to USB-C, several USB-C to USB-D and several USB-D to USB-D.
* not counting the Switch. I’m not gambling with that - it gets its original PSU only.
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> But even those non-tech people should have some USB-C cables lying around at this point
I do have a couple of these, from my old MBP and my iPad Pro. What I don't have many of are USB-C bricks. I have tons of USB-A bricks that work with all of my micro USB devices (wireless keyboard, Beats, bike lights, etc.) and my Lightning devices (iPhone, several iPads, several AirPods).
If all of these devices move over to USB-C and don't include bricks, I'll end up going out and buying half a dozen of them to replace the ones we have around our house currently. We'll also need cables, and in all this will probably cost $100. Not a huge deal, but not something I'm looking forward to shelling out for, especially since there's no gain from my perspective.
> Every MacBook made in the last five years (and most iPads sold in the last couple years) uses a USB-C cable.
Current Apple laptops come with USB-C to MagSafe cables. They are USB-C in the sense that they fit USB-C bricks, but the cable itself (which is very nice/braided, and hopefully will last a long time) is single-purpose. It won't work in anything but an Apple laptop.
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I am a tech person with an older MacBook Pro and a newer iPhone, and AirPods. I own zero USB C cables and am not really looking forward to the switch.
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>But even those non-tech people should have some USB-C cables lying around at this point
This has got to be one of the best tech people response to a non-tech people question ever.
Most non-tech people living in Apple's ( or more precisely iPhone ) ecosystem simply dont have any USB-C cables lying around.
But even those non-tech people should have some USB-C cables lying around at this point
Dont most people keep some devices permanently connected to the cable it came with though? I don't use my monitors USB-C cable to charge anything else. I don't use the quest link cable for anything but the quest. In theory it's "one cable for every device" but in practice the only place that happens is in a backpack power bank or car. Every device comes with its own cable and whether the new iPhone comes with a USB or lightning cable all it does is add one more cable to your collection.
If they do have a usb-c cable they likely don’t necessarily think of it as one. It’s just generic charging cable that works with this device that they probably leave plugged in all the time.
But when you tell them that the thing they plug in and out every day is changing cables that ruffles feathers.
And what are the chances that those Android phones with USB C actually support high speed data or video over USB C?
And those USB C MacBook cables definitely don’t support data transfers. The newest ones come with MagSafe
Non-tech people aren't constantly buying new tech like what you listed.
I have a FLIR camera that plugs into the lightning port on my iPhone. I'm not sure if it will even be supported with an adaptor when/if I get a USB-C iPhone.
Absolutely.
USB-C appeals to techies, people with an engineering mindset, because it's an elegant solution. It's one connector, with graceful handling of different use-cases from charging, through peripherals, to high-speed high throughput data transfer.
But practically speaking, I've bought several HDMI adapters, had a hard time choosing a mouse that had USB-C a few years ago, have bought a new charger, lost MagSafe on my laptop. This is how most people view it, and it's hard to convince them otherwise, and rightly so!
There are some technical pitfalls of USB-C too. Solvable but still present.
Probably the biggest thing people don't think about is how rare USB-C hubs are. I don't mean the ones that adapt to other ports (if you thought of that first, it illustrates my point), I mean one that takes one USB-C and gives you more. For years after 2016, the chip to make this simply didn't exist. Even now, it's expensive. For this reason, it actually makes sense to use USB-A accessories even if your PCs take -C, cause you can always get more -A ports for cheap. So companies still make -A accessories, and even a lot of -C ones tend to come with an A-to-C cable in the box (and no -C to -C cable!).
Non-tech people tend to understand these things without knowing it. They see new port, they say no.
I have had Android phones where the USB-C port has failed bricking the device (can’t charge). Micro-USB was far worse, but USB-C still fails to often.
Lightning appears to be much more robust (anecdotally watching friends devices, I have had few Apple iDevices). Mechanically and electrically, I like the lightning connector (although I loath proprietary shit generally).
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It's not even an elegant solution.
Having one port profile front for multiple technologies (USB, USB-PD, DisplayPort, Thunderbolt), and multiple versions of those technologies, with the cables being random able/unable to support any particular matrix of them, has been a usability nightmare.
Also on a purely functional level the actually-a-male design of the Lightning plug has made it—in my opinion—a far superior physical plug than the looks-male-but-is-female-in-disguise design of the USB-C plug.
I know many people that mentally only perceive connectors as "the iphone cable" and "the android cable". The "Android cable" could be anything from micro-usb to usb-c to old propietary connectors of old nokia and motorola.
To this people this change effectively removes what's familiar and understood for something unknown, but I think it will still be for the better if eventually they will only perceive it as "the cable" that just works with pretty much anything.
It is not a difference in mind sets.
Those "non technical people" want the same thing that the "tech heads" want: One type of cable that is compatible with all their devices. They just don't necessarily realize that they have already organized their lives in a way that excludes mismatched cables.
I would be just as happy to have everything switch to lightning. I really don't care what it is I just want all my cables to be the same.
One time my mother ordered a power cable for an old coffee maker, I think a Revereware percolator or something similar. I remember she found one specifically for it and waited for it to arrive so she could test this and re-sell it. I took a look and it's just a regular ATX computer power cable (type C13 but I had to look that up), and I was like, I've got a pile of those and could just have given you one.
People just don't realize what are standard cables vs what are bespoke for their application, and this sort of thinking has bitten me personally as well.
I think tech heads are the least practical with tech. It's not necessarily about convenience to them, and they'll tolerate a lot.
As someone in the Apple ecosystem looking out, I disliked that the 30-pin connector replaced FireWire, but understood it was thinner. That connector then stuck around for around 10 years.
Look at nearly every other device manufacturer when the 30-pin connector was being used - Palm, Motorola, Samsung, LG, Sony, etc. all used proprietary connectors that were not only incompatible with each other, but often didn’t work between devices from the same manufacturer. There was no devices to replace (except chargers), because no accessory makers would take the risk of 30 SKUs to support devices that wouldn’t be sold in 6 months and whose bespoke connectors would vanish with the device.
Late in that evolution, device makers decide to standardize on micro-USB, but even that “standard” didn’t last as long as the 30-pin connector.
Lightning was almost universally better (unless you wanted audio and power easily from the same connector), and it also lasted for around 10 years.
USB-C hasn’t even been around as long as lightning, so even though most devices have standardized on it, it has a shorter product life than Lightning has had. Even now, it’s still a mystery to me whether a USB-C adapter and cable will charge my device or fry it.
I’m hopeful that USB-C and whatever charging standard du jour sticks around for a while. The physical connector seems robust enough (though Lightning’s single metal block with no flimsy plastic blade seems pretty optimal), and small enough (again, Lightning).
The idea, however, that Apple is always changing cables when they’ve had two (2!) over two decades is an amazing feat. It’s suboptimal that they were proprietary, but the idea that there is a mountain of e-waste because of them ignores how long they were compatible and the effect of their ubiquity had on accessory makers.
I welcome a new USB-C world, but really think the issues with the 30-pin and Lightning cables ignore everyone else in the industry. I’m also concerned that when USB-D is released, will this legislation prevent device makers from adopting it for stupid legal reasons. This seems specifically like something that should be left to markets.
Is it even possible to fry a device with the wrong USB c? I thought at worse you get longer charging times or slower data
I think this meme started due to Nintendo (very inadvisedly) adopting a non-standard USB-C implementation for the Switch. It wouldn't have been nearly as bad if they'd used a proprietary connector on top of their modified implementation, but they left the connector unchanged and simply added a "use only official Nintendo chargers" warning which of course no one was going to follow.
This did then, in fact, predictably lead to people frying their Switches, and has only further muddied the waters around the standard (which, to be sure, if you're using chargers and cables from at least minimally reputable manufacturers, will never fry a device under normal circumstances).
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Astonishingly, yes. There was a big thing a while back with a Googler reviewing USB-C products and highlighting if they were dangerous: https://www.computerworld.com/article/3002159/usb-c-benson-l...
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I suspect that Apple has been in progress of moving things over to USB-C for a while (see the recent Apple TV and iPad changes). They have already moved off of USB-A chargers completely, moving onto USB-C chargers.
My understanding is they are also pushing the upper limits of what lightning charging cables are rated for, my suspicion is that it can't support PPS, so the lightning port is now limiting them both in charging speed/flexibility and in data transfer.
But in some markets (like the US) you have more lightning-charged iPhones than android phones. It is a lot big cost for their customers to bear, throwing away a decade of chargers and cables when Apple is not really going to be able to express it as an improvement to them - for instance, most phone users don't use the data channel at all, getting updates and backing up data with the cloud.
I find it odd people think their reluctance has been to defend profits on some sort of lightning cable ecosystem. Their margin on phones is likely $100+. Their margin on the licensing for a third-party cable is likely below $0.50.
I'd argue this regulation is great for Apple, because it gives them a scapegoat. Apple then claims didn't necessarily _want_ to cost their customers a bunch of money, but the EU mandated it. So Apple is going to go ahead and make the change worldwide.
But hey, look, at the same time we improved phone charging speeds and look how fast we can transfer ProRes media you captured with your phone now to your computer? Feel free to tack those new official charging cables and data transfer cables along with any chargers you need at purchase, if you don't have any already.
> Apple switched to Lightning. It was better in every. single. way.
This is pedantic, but the 30-pin connector did have one minor feature Lightning didn't -- the interface supported a design where it needed to be squeezed to be released, like DisplayPort or RJ45, and a small number of products took advantage of this to build very secure mounts. When switching to Lightning it was no longer possible to build a 3rd-party accessory that had such a secure attachment to the phone.
EDIT: I had remembered this as something Apple's original cables did, where you needed to squeeze them to release, but looking back I think you could just pull them out: https://web.archive.org/web/20071023101738/http://store.appl...
EDIT2: that page has a comment "This cable came with my Ipod Touch and all i have to say is , what an improvement. it was a wonderful idea to do away with those silly squeese tabs. all i have to do is give it a quick yank and its out." so maybe I'm not imagining things?
There were two different models I believe, one that had the squeeze grip and another that didn't require it.
I believe the design was changed because the original squeeze cable had a tendency to cause damage to the iPod/iPhone/iPad when inserted and then yanked/pulled out without squeezing. At least, that's what I remember.
You're not imagining things, the originals did indeed snap in. I can remember how the buttons felt on my grody old charger.
I stayed at a hotel in Italy a few years ago, and the radio alarm next to the bed _still_ had the 30 pin connector. No doubt that there are probably a ton of people still annoyed at Apple.
Yep, Apple probably wanted to switch to USB-C earlier but you can see why they also wouldn't want the backlash. Now, they can switch to USB-C and also blame the regulators when people are mad, so this is kind of win/win for them.
What makes you think they wanted to switch sooner? I get that this gives them cover, but what competitive/cost benefits would they have gained by switching?
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There are 30-pin to Lightning cables/adapters for connecting to older equipment that otherwise continue to work perfectly.
You're skipping how Apple made Lightning a closed standard and charged big royalties for it. I can reasonably point to that licensing as the reason a legitimate Lightning to USB cable costs at least $15 instead of $1.50, cause the latter is how much a good knockoff costs.
Seriously. I will not take anyone seriously about how "Apple just cared about a better standard" when they literally don't allow it to be made a standard.
It's just a connector. If you're not letting everyone use it, it's not about it being better... it's about rent-seeking. Which is exactly what the EU legislation seeks to end.
Not to shill for a trillion dollar megacorp, but when you've got lightning and the competition has USB mini, how exactly is that rent seeking? You've developed an objectively better product, don't you deserve something for it?
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And yet I can find one just as good on Amazon for $5.
No I also don’t worry about buying gold plated HDMI cables.
If you can find a $5 one that's truly MFi-licensed and not a counterfeit, that's a new thing. They used to always be $15 minimum. Not talking about luxury ones.
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> The expectations of Apple were higher only because of that brand recognition.
I think the expectations were high also because Apple had a really strong marketing push on the concept of "docking" your devices. I remember even cars had dedicated iPhones docks as additional selling points, along with speakers and many other devices. There was a promise that if you bought an iPhone you could dock it everywhere and so there was this big ecosystem of things you could plug it in. Then apple switched to lightning and quietly retired the whole docking thing.
My resentment with the change from the dock connector to lightning was that with lightning, at least initially, they refused to license the tech to anyone for a reasonable fee so it completely eliminated entire classes of products from the market for newer iPhones. I specifically kept my iPhone 4S longer than I would have otherwise to be able to continue using an external DAC and amplifier for driving high impedance headphones for this reason, as an example. I had no problem with the lightning form factor, I had a problem with the unnecessary and punitive DRM they included within it for /no reason/ other than their greed. I believe it's for this same reason they've resisted offering USB-C, which would mean anyone could make an accessory by abiding by industry standards without having to pay for an mFI chip and certification.
> There was so much hardware that was now incompatible
Huh? There's a 30-pin-to-lightning dongle that, AFAIK, works for everything. (Or nearly everything?)
I use one still, to connect my ~2010 Zeppelin speaker (30-pin) to an old 2016 iPhone SE (Lightning) I use exclusively for Spotify. Works like a charm.
The idea that the transition to Lightning somehow turned all of this old stuff to junk is silly.
I stayed in a hotel recently with one of those clock radios with the 30-pin connector on top. It would have been nice to have it use the larger speakers for background music and the alarm. But with over 200 rooms they probably weren't in a rush to replace all those units with Lightning and now USB-C.
I have yet to find a hotel that has upgraded their lamp-mounted or bedside USB ports. This is super annoying because I typically travel with a MagSafe charger for my MBA and a USB-C to Lightning cable to charge my iPhone. I would plug in my phone next to the bed if I could, but typically end up just leaving it with my computer to charge there.
Has anyone seen a USB-C port in a hotel? I've seen that some car manufacturers are including them (sometimes in lieu of USB-A; sometimes in addition to it).
> Has anyone seen a USB-C port in a hotel?
I don't travel as much as I used to, but I was commenting on this in a hotel room in Schenectady just this past weekend. We've just barely gotten to the point where it's a surprise not to find at least one or two USB-A ports in a room, whether built into a lamp or otherwise. USB-C is probably going to take as long to appear as those did, and that was what? Five years? More? Certainly not less.
I have a compact four-port charger that lives in my travel bag, and I suspect I'll be plugging it into still-too-rare AC outlets in hotel rooms for a long time yet. At least I know it's wired correctly, has overcurrent protection etc., and will charge my devices at a known rate. Can't say any of those things about a random port built into a lamp, so I don't really trust those anyway TBH.
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I‘ve seen a few, not many. I think the Mariott Marquis in New York had them and I just came back from the Hilton La Defense in Paris that had them as well, at least in the recently renovated room we stayed in.
It‘s like cars and airplanes. The change is happening it will take a long time for the existing investment to age out.
My guess is that they might just leave the room without a clock at some point. I’ve stayed in multiple hotels recently with no clock or in-room phone.
There's A Dongle For That (tm). Not just clock radios, there were audio receivers which used the 30-pin connector.
> "they're always changing their cables". It's obviously not true,
Last year Apple switched from USB-C charging to a new MagSafe charger on M1 Macbooks. USB-C was first introduced in 2018, moving away from the old MagSafe design. These are a very recent changes, so I'd say this still applies.
USB-C was 2016 but yeah. 2006 to 2022, the changes were MagSafe 1 -> MagSafe 2 -> USB-C -> MagSafe 3. That's enough changing that every new laptop you bought probably had a different way of charging, and the MagSafes were hardly different from each other.
But the alternative was you got a Dell/whatever laptop with some one-off charging mechanism.
Thankfully they do still charge on the USB port but yes it does seem odd they didn’t just give customers another usbc port instead.
I do quite like the usability of lightning, and I was quite upset when they cut it. I tried using 3rd party USB-C magnetic adapters, but they mostly suck. I welcome the dualism of new lightning + USB-C charging, the best of both worlds.
MagSafe has a lot of benefits. High wattage before the latest high wattage usb-c came out, and easily disconnects which is great for laptops.
Seriously , I’ve seen it save so many laptops in its current and prior generations.
You can use either, or both at the same time.
My MacBooks would like a word. The Magsave cable changes every few years, regardless of outside forces. None of the ‘older’ ones fit my newer MacBooks…
"Every few years"
There have been three versions of MagSafe (not "Magsave"). The first one was in use for 6 years, the second for 6 years before it was dropped for USB-C. The third version has been around for two years worth of devices now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe
MagSafe was introduced in 2006 and has had exactly three iterations. “Every few years” is a bit of a stretch.
There’s been three in total and the new one works concurrently with usbc and is an optional, nice, extra.
Are you proposing the alternative was that Apple kept supporting 30 pin connectors?
And despite your anecdotes, evidence shows that switching didn’t hurt Apple sales. What were the people who were “burnt” by Apple abandoning 30 pin connectors going to do? Switch to Android and still have to switch cables?
Not at all. It was an old connector that needed to be replaced. What I'm suggesting is that as a brand with that level of public recognition there is No Good Answer. Every option sucks in some way.
And the same is true again now for USB-C, "just switch to USB-C" is not an answer that sounds good for most people, and Apple is still paying for the bad will from customers from the 30-pin connector transition. The USB-C transition is only going to add to that.
> Apple is still paying for the bad will from customers from the 30-pin connector transition.
No they are not. The only time 30 pin is _ever_ mentioned is in these discussions about USB-C.
That “bad will” was overblown to begin with and everyone has forgotten about it in the 10 years and several billion products sold since.
Yep. And even worse they probably would have had to switch from Micro USB to USB-C again when they upgraded.
And I can still connect my iPhone 12 to my old car that supports the “iPod USB protocol” from before the first iPhone came out.
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Try asking the same enthusiasts who are adamant that switching to USB-C is no big deal and legacy cruft needs to be eliminated what they think about switching to a new PCIe power connector.
Forget the 12VHPWR problems, we had a push for a new connector last gen too and it was universally reviled for some reason. People do not want a new connector, let alone a new voltage rail to help move that power a little more safely, they just wanna keep doing 8-pin forever even when it swells to 4+ connectors and starts dictating PCB layouts etc.
If people want to be evenhanded and honest about seriously looking at legacy standards, it's time to have a chat about ATX and PCIe add-in-card form factorand their relevance in the 21st century. It's time for a new connector and new voltage rails and new form factors for GPUs in general, that standard dates back to the original AT PC (ATX is literally "AT eXtended") and a PC no longer looks anything like it did in 1980.
The "add-in-card" is now pulling more than the actual CPU and the growth of the coolers makes supporting them physically difficult, and the chaos in the market has made solutions impossible because there is no standard for physical dimensions or connector plug-points etc. This is textbook, it's the exact same situation as pre-USB connector standards, everyone is doing their own sizes and layouts and it's chaos. Why should we not have government intervention to impose some common standards and get everybody on the same page so solutions can be engineered and we move forward? Why should a GPU not be a 6x4x12 inch box (or a set of other standard sizes) that slides as a module into the case with high-current connectors in a standardized location? No more GPU sag, no more 4x8pin, just one XT90 jag that contacts as you slide the module into its receptacle on a rail. Sounds like heaven to me.
EU should look at giving a standards body a mandate to move forward past that and we can work towards mandatory adoption of the new standard and outlawing the sale of legacy ATX within 5-10 years. That sounds extreme but it's what we did for USB-C, right? But it's different when it's your sacred cow and you have to pay for new hardware...
> The contrast between "force Apple to stop adhering to legacy standards, USB-C is the future!!!" and "gubmint hands off muh 8-pin aux connectors!!!" is interesting.
Both of these are the same stance to me, "existing industry standards appear to suffice, why foist something different on the market?"
I don't think governments are behind a lot of these changes so that last bit is probably exaggeration but seems misplaced; it's Nvidia, Apple, etc choosing these connectors for their products.
> existing industry standards appear to suffice
reminder: lightning came first, because the industry couldn't get its shit together and agree on a successor to micro-b, despite acknowledgement of the shortcomings.
lightning is the pcie 8-pin in this comparison: you may not like the technical limitations it imposes, but, it works well enough that you can build products around it. So why impose a change to The Current Thing and do this whole big changeover if it's already working well enough?
could it be better? sure. And you could do better than pcie 8-pin too. But that's the hardware that's in people's hands right now.
> I don't think governments are behind a lot of these changes
sure they are, what do you think this article is literally about? The EU handed a technological monopoly via legislative fiat to the USB-IF here. You don't have to follow it, but you can't sell your goods in the EU if you don't.
Why could we not require DIY parts sold in the EU to adhere to a new "pcie module" standard and outlaw sale of legacy form-factors outside enterprise/specialty use-cases (like engineered HPC systems and other enterprise, non-consumer products)? Most of those guys are on their own mezzanine standards anyway for the important stuff. Just declare "we're gonna make the change" and give companies a few years to implement it and get hardware into consumer hands, and then flip the switch and ban sale of the legacy products. It's not a big deal to update if you actually get buy-in from companies, but you can't have half the industry go one way and half the industry go another, because then it's a mess, and in the meantime if you have half the companies digging in their heels nothing changes. Just like USB connectors.
The really ironic thing is that if PCIe could make the same transition as USB - towards 48V power delivery - it would all be a lot easier and safer. USB is literally the model for moving forward here lol, and if you upgrade your PSU you could even keep your legacy connector (48v lets you deliver 4x the power at the same current). But people aren't interested in moving forward for the sake of moving forward - the interest in ditching legacy standards vanishes as soon as you bring up a standard their brand favors.
It's just an extension of the brand wars. It's not about USB-C vs Lightning, you could simply mandate adoption of the power delivery standards and usb 3.0 speeds (ipad pro already supports usb-3.0 over lightning) if you wanted. It's about Android vs Apple and people are only interested in ditching legacy standards when it can be tied to their brand war. People absolutely don't care about the connector, and it's not about what came first (which was Lightning). They care about The Other Guy getting a thumb in their eye and having the EU legally outlaw the Apple standard. The thrill of having the EU legislatively confirm that Android Is Better.
And ATX vs future-power is turning into a proxy war for AMD vs NVIDIA too. It's mildly disgusting, like sure I'd love to move forward on eliminating legacy standards cruft, but if you want to talk sacred cows then ATX/pcie-add-in-card are #1 and #2 on the list. People aren't raising the "legacy standard" thing in good faith at all, it's just brand warriorism and the instant you ask them to change their crufty legacy standard the answer is no.
Brands are now competing and marketing to customers on the basis of refusing to adopt the new standard despite its official adoption into ATX - that's so obviously problematic that it invites the same kind of governmental action as the EU took with USB. This is how you're supposed to do it according to the USB model and industry-consensus model that the EU favors. But oh, this is my brand and my sacred cow, you can't make me change a cable, that's not fair! And literally it's the most mild possible change, ATX working group is bending over backwards to maintain PSU compatibility and it's causing problems with heating/connection quality/damage. Really we need to move up to 48V like USB did, but enthusiasts are going to pitch an even bigger hissy fit over that.
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Consideration of cost and product volume are big here.
Not nearly so many people are affected by PSU and motherboard specs as they are phone connectors.
> It's sad that it took legislation to make this happen, but I can see why.
Did it? Apple moved their last Lightning product (outside of iPhones & their accessories) earlier this week.
It seemed pretty clear they were going all USB-C, just on their own timeline. It was already widely expected next year.
I bet it would have happened within 2 years if the law wasn’t passed.
If all the iPads, or even most of them, were still Lightning I’d agree. But when even the cheapest model moved, the writing was on the wall.
> Did it? Apple moved their last Lightning product (outside of iPhones & their accessories) earlier this week.
Apple’s Mac peripheral accessories (keyboard, trackpad, mouse) are still all Lightning.
As are their AirPods (unfortunately). I just bought the new AirPods Pro and will attempt to keep them for a while if I can prevent my golden retriever from eating them this time, so it seems I'll have to keep some lightning cables around.
Last year was the first time I've ever had a Mac product and I really liked it. It was also time for me to get a new phone. The only thing that stopped me from getting the iphone was their connector wasn't USBC. Seems trivial, but for someone brand new to the Apple ecosystem, it provided enough friction and cost them a sale. I might give them a shot a few years from now when it's time to replace my phone.
> t's sad that it took legislation to make this happen
Every time this topic comes up i still don’t understand what problem is this legislation supposed to solve. We’re not talking about infrastructure standarization like a gas pump, an electrical outlet or a lightbulb (which has hundreds of standards BTW) but a simple cable. Are we making laws just to accommodate consumer’s convenience now?
I don't understand the question.
Customer convenience, including interoperability and competition, is the reason those other things are standardized.
> 30-pin compatible speaker docks and other accessories were very widely available, but there are far fewer devices made for Lightning
Apple used Firewire in the original iPod, then used the 30-pin connector for ~10 years, following it with Lightning as the "connector for the next decade." Seems to have been fairly accurate.
If resentment from rendering existing accessories obsolete due to changing connectors is the root cause of the delay, maybe Apple has been secretly waiting for the EU legislation so it can deflect the blame? e.g. "it's EU forcing our hands so we have to change."
I think this is exactly what is going on. The last change saw a few long threads here decrying Apple as the AntiChrist for daring to make the change, and arguing for Micro USB, which was and remains a bad standard.
I would buy this argument if iPads and Macbooks didn't have usb-c charging
>given Apple's core role in defining the USB-C spec
This is another one of John Gruber made up lies that continue to this day.
Basically following in Sony's footsteps.
With the same results.