Ask HN: Why are 5 comments/day “posting too fast”, what precisely is “too fast”?
3 years ago
Notice: I have used the search function and read ALL results, none contains a precise definition of what "too fast" is. Some suggest emailing HN, but I do not have an email address anymore (because they all want phone numbers nowadays).
I've posted a total of merely 5 comments today, and have not posted a thread at all.
The last comment was over 2 hours ago.
Yet I couldn't post another reply, HN told me "You're posting too fast. Please slow down. Thanks.".
So what is "too fast" precisely?
Why is the timeout so long?
And 5 comments in a single day does seem reasonable, why did I get a timeout anyway?
I have personal obligations, it's really stressful for me to keep what I wanted to say on my mind for hours and keep trying to post it again until it works :| So it would be very useful to know when I can post it so I can schedule this and be done with it :)
Side node:
I know these timeouts are a policy decision to keep people from posting angry things. Have you considered the possibility that people might get even more vile if they feel like their opinion is being suppressed for arbitrary reasons? Because such a timeout script cannot take into account whether what the person is trying to say is right or wrong, it punishes everyone the same for trying to participate. And arbitrary judgements which are not by any means related to what actually happened are anger-inducing, it could push some people over the edge of not caring for good faith discussion anymore.
As an example, in this case the large timeout of over an hour and the anger induced by that made me wonder whether it was even a script, or rather a manual action because the HN moderation team could have some sort of agenda against the (IMHO factual!) statements which I posted. Inducing such distrust does not seem beneficial to the community :|
As an alternative to strict timeouts, I would suggest just showing a confirmation check: "You have replied just N minutes ago. Are you sure you're not being angry here and want to post this? Please type 'I am NOT angry, please post this' into the below box to confirm."
Your account is rate limited. We rate limit accounts when they post too many low-quality comments too quickly and/or get involved in flamewars.
I'm sorry, I know it's annoying, but it's one of the few (crude) software tools we have to try to dampen the decline of the site. We want thoughtful, curious conversation here, and value quality over quantity in all things.
It's on my list to build a more probation-style system that gives people feedback about how long they're in the bad-dog-box for, and tries to explain which guidelines they've been breaking. I recognize that the current system is limited and when you say it makes you angry, I get it. I'd feel angry too.
I guess in our defense I'd plead that it's almost impossible to keep this place from collapsing, we don't really know how to do what we need to do, the pressures are enormous, and we're limited in resources. (That's mostly my fault, by the way—not YC's—but that's another story.)
> That's mostly my fault, by the way—not YC's—
I don't think you have to be afraid of losing your job - excuse me, of being impacted by the current situation - just now so there is probably no need for such disclaimers, or am I wrong?
Oh, that disclaimer wasn't because I'm afraid of, er, "being impacted". I just don't want to make anything sound even slightly like YC's fault which in fact is my own choice or weirdness. (e.g. the way that HN is limited in resources is mostly the latter, but if I say "sorry that HN is annoying, we're just so limited in resources", by default it's going to sound like a complaint about the org and that would be mistaken.) Getting to choose things and be weird is one of my favorite things about this job and about YC, and I want to be super clear about that and not throw anyone under any buses. I know this is a little vague and hard to follow but I hope less than before!
> Your account is rate limited. We rate limit accounts when they post too many low-quality comments too quickly and/or get involved in flamewars.
Thank you very much for taking the time to try to clarify things! :)
I say "try to" because your statement still does not tell me what I precisely did wrong?
I unfortunately cannot guess it as I stand by my opinions, like most people do probably.
> I recognize that the current system is limited and when you say it makes you angry, I get it. I'd feel angry too.
Thank you very much for the empathy! Good to hear! :)
> I guess in our defense I'd plead that it's almost impossible to keep this place from collapsing, we don't really know how to do what we need to do, the pressures are enormous, and we're limited in resources. (That's mostly my fault, by the way—not YC's—but that's another story.)
I hear your struggle and thank you very much for the effort you're putting in! Don't be too hard on yourself.
You kept the place running for many years, so it's not collapsing!
How about these ideas:
1) If you want people to change their behavior, you have to tell them whats wrong. All I have been told up to now is that I cannot post quickly anymore. This changes zero about my opinions and how I intend to behave. Because I have no crystal ball, I cannot blind guess what HN disliked.
This isn't even an issue of the Internet, it's a general concern of regulation: If humans do not understand why a piece of regulation is imposed upon them, they are more likely to not accept it.
And don't forget: Moderators are humans too, it is entirely possible that you misjudge something to be low-quality even though it is not - but you will never get a chance to learn why you were wrong if the person you judged cannot correct you because you don't talk to them but just rate-limit them :)
2) Use the tools you have already. You could have commented my original post(s) which caused you to rate limit me, and there told me why my comments are "low-quality" or "flamewars" in your opinion.
Also, HN does have a system which is meant to rate content in a community effort, so precisely what is needed to ease the moderation burden - the voting system! If people don't like my posts they could just have downvoted them.
No need for manual intervention.
And more democratic.
3) This is a matter of personal taste, not necessary a strict recommendation, but: Tell people to change before you punish them. I know it's the new normal on the Internet to punish people right away - I just think this is rude.
My guess - the "too fast" is for activity from your IP # or block, not for activity from your account. But the error message was never updated to reflect the actual code.
Generic advice: Unless you have a paid account, or are officially representing your company, it is usually better to not become too emotionally invested in any on-line forum. HN included.
> My guess - the "too fast" is for activity from your IP # or block, not for activity from your account. But the error message was never updated to reflect the actual code.
I'm on residential dialup, not some kind of company network, so it is unlikely that my IP subnet has a high number of HN users.
If you felt you needed to post this question you should step away from the site and maybe the internet. HN posts aren’t important. None of this matters. Take care of yourself.
> If you felt you needed to post this question you should step away from the site and maybe the internet.
Would you mind reading up on the word "gatekeeping" so I don't have to elaborate it here? :)
> HN posts aren’t important. None of this matters. Take care of yourself.
HN is the only place where it is possible to talk to the people who build the tech infrastructure which dominates and changes our daily lives.
Try talking to e.g. a human at Google elsewhere, it's just not possible.
Internet politics is made here.
Wow, what an amazing combination of statements. You're blowing my mind actually.
> Try talking to e.g. a human at Google elsewhere, it's just not possible.
100% yes - being willing to be a human at the end of (almost) every communication is the thing that matters most to us in terms of HN moderation.
> HN is the only place where it is possible to talk to the people who build the tech infrastructure which dominates and changes our daily lives.
Here I start to lose the connection. I don't feel like HN admins are building that. We're just trying to run a web forum. It's true that YC owns HN and YC invests (or tries to!) in the most important world-changing startups, but there are several layers of indirection between us and that.
> Internet politics is made here.
Oh god that sounds absolutely awful. Let's not and say we did?
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You’re attributing way too much value to a HN post. Please, take a break and clear your mind of HN.
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There is literally no gatekeeping, the guy is just giving you an absolutely sane advice.
Go out and go bang chicks or whatever. Politics do not matter
And even if they did, no googler or whatver cares about HN comments. Like none at all. HN is just a news aggregator
>Have you considered the possibility that people might get even more vile if they feel like their opinion is being suppressed for arbitrary reasons?
Imma go out on a limb and wager that the person who feels that way should probably step away from the comment box for a bit.
We're all just chatGPT bots anyways.
Can you please imagine this was not the Internet but real life:
If you talk to your friends, and one of them is forbidden to speak, how high would the probability be that their emotional state is NOT affected?
Ordering someone to be quiet is an action which surely will have some kind of effect on their emotional state, isn't it?
This is nothing about me personally, it's just how humans work. Block them in some way and they will get frustrated.
This site is geared towards curious, thoughtful conversation. It doesn't always live up to that goal. But that's the goal. The goal isn't to make people feel good about themselves regardless of how they behave. Talk too loud in a library, and you'll get shushed.
But... we aren't in real life. We're on the internet. I'm probably a bot. You're probably a bot.
You're way, way, wayyyyyyy too emotionally invested in the comment box.
The exact rate limit, to my understanding, is tuned by the moderators. So one of them presumably thought you were making some inflammatory comments and made a conscious choice to slow you down. Reach out to hn@ycombinator.com to find out more and make an appeal.
If you look back at the GPs comments you can see some that were flagged/closed recently, a few that were downvoted and also a good number of threads that turned into meta threads with others posters that get downvoted. So looks like someone who has been targeted for limiting or additional moderation.
Can you please tell me what the the "good number" is you're talking about?
I do not have time to regurgitate my own history, but I scrolled over it once and it does not seem as controversial as you're portraying it here.
E.g. I only see one flagged comment, how is that "some"?
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> The exact rate limit, to my understanding, is tuned by the moderators. So one of them presumably thought you were making some inflammatory comments and made a conscious choice to slow you down.
I have read my comments before the timeout again multiple times before posting this thread here and IMHO they are just stating facts about software, not much of making an opinion about the facts themselves.
I had intentionally left room for other commenters to have their own opinion.
Quote: "As with all things in life, a golden rule applies: If you don't like it then don't use it, that's ok!"
> Reach out to hn@ycombinator.com to find out more and make an appeal.
Uhm, are you actually a human who has read my thread or are you some kind of chat AI?
Because the first line literally says: "Some suggest emailing HN, but I do not have an email address anymore (because they all want phone numbers nowadays)."
Anyway, considering the large number of upvotes this Ask HN has gained, seems more people in the community are interested in clarity. Considering the search function also does not yield clarity it would probably be beneficial for the moderation team and overall peace to make things more clear here?
"I do not have an email address" is not a reasonable state of being. The way you can resolve this is via email, and you should obtain one.
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>I know these timeouts are a policy decision to keep people from posting angry things
You assume this is the case, but really it's likely more just to prevent people from trying to dominate the conversation.
There's not that many posts or comments on HN (compared to other "social media"), so it's good to let other people to have a chance to chime in, instead of just railroading other participants.
If your comments have merit other people should be able to support your argument. You don't need to be a one man information army.
I think some accounts get flagged for whatever reason and it's used as a punishment. If you create a new account from Tor the problem doesn't replicate so... Go figure.
My guess is that it varies according to the load. Another guess is that the gpt4 thread is draining right now. Disclaimer: just guesses.
>Have you considered the possibility that people might get even more vile if they feel like their opinion is being suppressed for arbitrary reasons?
Sometimes it is a good thing to be slowed down. Gives time to consider ones position, and intention for posting.
I would say that it would be the exact wrong response to get upset at them rate limiting you.
Yep. It's the people who get angry at being rate-limited who need to be rate-limited.
ddevault is correct. Normal users don’t have a limit. Certainly not five posts a day.
Some mod has put restrictions on your account.
I'm not sure this is the whole story
While sometimes it does look like some kind of throttling on your activity, I wonder if it can also be some kind of general throttling (site-wide)
Though the usability of that message could be improved, as for example, you could be given more info, maybe some timing on when you'd be able to post again, or at least something to let you know before posting
He mentioned that he didn't add his email address to his account which could be why his account is limited, to which he said he was not willing to give up because he's had "enough spam already." Just use a fake one.
I'm starting to see the absurdity of this post.
> I'm starting to see the absurdity of this post.
It certainly is absurd to ask some simple questions which could be answered numerically for the most of them ... and then people go into some kind of field day to judge my character based on digging through 10s (!!!) of my comment history pages of 600 comments (someone said that number here, I didn't even know, did they write a script to compute it?), to judge my "emotional investment", and to judge me for not wanting to hand out my phone number to email providers, and finally they block my post by "flagging" it so it won't be seen by the moderation team and won't get an actual answer.
It could have been as simple as telling me "The limit is N posts per M minutes", but no, we must have some kind of public character execution instead.
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There are many forms of comment repression in the HN comments...
I think each post should go at the top of the comments.
When you write a comment, and it appears after 400 other comments, they might as well not publish it at all...
By default each post does appear at the top. It may not stay there for long, though, depending on what else is going on in the thread.
Also, comment ranking can be affected by account penalties. We penalize accounts when they post in ways that break the site guidelines (or the intended spirit of the site), but not so badly that we would ban them.
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