Comment by quaintdev

3 years ago

OP seems from India and AFAIK its illegal to transmit on FM frequencies without a license. I understand it might be low powered but theres a chance of Police coming knocking on the door. Whats worse is it might interfere with emergency services. There is a reason we have spoctrum licences.

I know. It is illegal in most parts of the world. I'm taking over a commercial FM channel that my MIL won't listen to, and the transmitter has about a 20m radius.

If the police come, I'll use the Constanza "Was that wrong?" defence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RvNS7JfcMM

  • ... I've always been amazed how often "Was that wrong?" works.

    I guess I shouldn't be. Even letting them know you were fully aware you were breaking the law, most people would see its intended purpose -- to bring a little peace and comfort to a very old woman -- and have their own compassion kick in.

    YMMV but I'm guessing you'd hear something along the lines of "Oh,... well,... (shuffles feet) ... just turn it off, then". Many of us have elderly people in our lives we wish we could provide some comfort to and most of us know we're headed there (if we're lucky to live that long). You know, assuming your 20m radius FM transmitter didn't, say, cause some cataclysmic event/knock emergency services offline for several city blocks, etc.

    Put another way, while some police actually will pull you over and write you a ticket for going a couple of miles (km) per hour over the speed limit, most won't waste the brain power/physical energy/thermal paper to bother enforcing it.

    • Well put. Exactly my thoughts. And given my MIL's attitude towards any visitor, the cops will be plied with food and chai till they burst. They will forget what they came for :)

    • > I've always been amazed how often "Was that wrong?" works.

      This is in line with Peelian principles of policing. It was explained to me by a policeman and it was fascinating. He had worked in the UK, Australia and New Zealand.

      In his view, Australia was considerably harsher in its policing and NZ was at the other end of the spectrum, UK in the middle.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

  • I’ve had much better luck with 100% honesty. Just say you set up a 20m transmitter to improve the life of a 93 year old woman.

    I bought a house in my very early 20s. Roommates of mine finished the third floor with no permits. Went to sell the house ten years later and the location it was in required a U&O inspection. My realtor told me to lie, apply for a permit and pretend I just did the work.

    Instead I called the local building inspector and said, “Hello my name is xxx and I’m calling to confess.” He cracked up laughing, came to the house immediately to look at everything and told me I was fine.

  • Yeah no one will bother with such a low-powered device. I used an in-car bluetooth-to-FM tranmitter bought from Amazon India for years. They've been sold openly since forever. Like this one: https://www.amazon.in/Portronics-AUTO-10-Bluetooth-Car/dp/B0...

    • Ha ha, I must have pulled up along side you the other day.

      Just kidding, I'm in the U.S. But more than a few times I have suddenly got Mexican musical content on my radio in the car when passing close to another car.

  • I hope they don't know how to use Google and if they do that that is a pseudonym you're posting under here or you might be in bigger trouble than you started with ;)

    Anyway, cool to see you hack this, maybe try to tweak the power levels a bit so the neighbors don't have a reason to talk about it.

    • The FCC allows personal FM transmitters to operate with a maximum power output of 250 microvolts per meter at a distance of 3 meters. Other countries are more permissive, so this is not a problem. As long as you don't interfere with anyone and emit in a band that's not used in the area, it's perfectly fine.

      4 replies →

It is Hacker News after all. And that's probably like jaywalking of RF violations. I'd be more afraid of the copyright people.

  • In the UK, if you break the law, they'll confiscate anything physically wired to it, computer included.

  • Where I live, this is absolutely not the jaywalking of RF violations. In Germany, if it is proven that your signal was potentially interfering with emergency services, you will be liable for any damage to victims in civil courts. And if somebody dies in your area because the emergency services couldn't get there on time, you will be criminally charged for "negligent manslaughter."

    I wouldn't play at all with non-approved RF frequencies personally.

    • In Germany (like afaik all the EU), you can also freely buy and use small low-power FM transmitters for exactly the use case of sending your own music to radios...

    • If a low power FM transmitter on commercial frequencies can interfere with your emergency services, you may have bigger problems. IIRC they have their own specific frequencies.

    • "RF violations"

      In germany its also legal to use plenty of bands in the RF Spectrcum with up to 750Watts (and potential more).

      We are also allowed to do CB Funk in Channels 1-40 without anything and up to 80/85 (forgot details) when you register with Germany.

      So your statement reads more like you are not allowed to do anything in germany. Its hard to believe to disturb stable systems just because someone is doing a little bit of FM on some known frequencies.

    • What would happen if you delayed an ambulance responding to an emergency by jaywalking in front of it? Could you be charged if someone died as a result?

      1 reply →

Yes, technically it is illegal. But I've seen all kinds of gizmos that would inject a signal into the FM band to allow the use of car stereos that didn't have an 'aux' input. At those power levels the FCC isn't going to be bothered unless someone lodges a complaint, and even then they'll have a hard time finding the source unless they're practically standing on top of it. OP may want to turn down the radiated power until it just works for his MIL but no longer for the neighbors.

  •   > Yes, *technically* it is illegal.
    

    Oh how many phrases start "Yes, technically" in my life.

    The law is an interesting beast. I know nothing about the law in India as it relates to FM band transmitters but I suspect that the law predates the common availability of adapters that one might use in ones car to add an input to a stereo that lacks such a highly technical circular hole for such purposes[0]. Once these devices gained wide adoption due to both their utility and -- more generally -- the fact that operating one is usually so benign that they can be difficult to discover let alone actually cause enough interference to warrant them to be seized.

    The intention of the law was to prevent someone from operating a pirate radio station/give exclusivity to a single license-holder for that frequency. Since these devices don't violate the spirit of the law, the governing body finds it easier to carve out an informal exemption rather than explicitly write one in. It can also be tricky to correct a law that has a very valid reason for existing but may have cases where total enforcement isn't realistic[1].

    The law may not have caught up to the reality on the ground and the legislatures answer to it is "enforce it when the interference is enough that someone notices." One might imagine a world where something akin to TV Detector-like Vans[2] drape the country-side in a dragnet to catch all of those pirate FM-input-devices but that usually only happens if there's a substantial amount of tax revenue to be gained ... to pay for the vans.

    [0] I had one of these in the 90s (in the US, where it's not illegal if designed correctly) that connected my Discman to my ridiculously sad factory radio which lacked both external input and even a cassette deck.

    [1] I do very little with regard to radio communication (if that isn't obvious) but I'd imagine most lawmakers do even less, so now you have to bring in experts to figure out "what's an acceptable amount of interference in this specific use case" and "how should a device like this be restricted." Not that government isn't famous for wildly wasting money or anything but I'd imagine the thinking is that it's not worth the effort to correct.

    [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_detector_van

    • [0] I had one of these in the 90s (in the US, where it's not illegal if designed correctly) that connected my Discman to my ridiculously sad factory radio which lacked both external input and even a cassette deck.

      Heh. I drive a 2002 Chevy Suburban (don't laugh, I have a strong aversion to spending money on new vehicles) and it lacks an AUX input, so to this day I use one of those low-power FM transmitter adapters to pipe my phone's audio output to the vehicle stereo. They are amazingly handy little gadgets.

      3 replies →

  • But quaintdev is right in that Indian Police for some reason takes this somewhat seriously. For highway patrol, I suspect it's boredom and this gives them something to chase. I remember in the late 90s when I was in college, the police showed up a couple of times when students were transmitting from one of the hostels. They'd let it go, but they did show up.

    • At what levels of power was this?

      I suspect the OPs transmitter is hard to detect even at close (< 100 meters > 30 meters) range. Anything more powerful and you would definitely attract attention.

If we ever have a world apocalypse and I’m alone, I know I can at least conjure one companion by suggesting I would use spectrum without a license and a ham enthusiast will appear.

  • <Dusts off Ham Licence> Anyone can use amateur frequencies in a genuine “no other communication options available” emergency, if I remember the regulations correctly.

    Edit: “§ 97.403 Safety of life and protection of property. No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of any means of radio communication at its disposal to provide essential communication needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.”

Illegal in India maybe. In the US: "In the United States, Part 15 of the U.S. Federal Communications Commission rules specifies that no license is needed if range of the transmitter does not exceed 200 feet (61 meters), although the Part 15 rules specify that the field strength should not exceed 250 µV/m (48db) at 3 meters"

I haven't found the exact law in India, but looks like maybe it's legal for personal usage of FM provided power of transmitter is under 500 mW?

Worth noting that there already exists a product in the Indian market by a big music label that addresses this exact issue. I’ve bought my grandfather one of those and he’s very happy with it!

  • Do you mean the saregama Caravaan? If so, I bought her one of those and it just didn't cut the mustard.

    The built-in collection either didn't have songs that she liked (from the '40s), or they weren't clustered together, or were mixed up with other songs.

    I could load a flash disk with her playlist to plug into that player, but it wouldn't know what to play at what time (calm songs in the early and late hours, peppier numbers on other days, festival specific numbers on some days). This was a big deal. I can even change the playlist from elsewhere (a script automatically mirrors the playlist that I maintain on a server)

    Bluetooth streaming is possible with the device, but not an option for my MIL ... that would require her to learn to use a cellphone.

I don't know if you are from India but our laws are so complicated that I am sure every moment we are breaking one or the other. If we constantly worried about which ones we are breaking we would never get anything done!