Comment by arp242
2 years ago
I'm not the person you're replying to, but I don't really mind the kernel (or anything else) being written in C as such, but interacting with C from $other_language can be rather painful for various reasons. In Go the reason they do what they do is because integrating it with how the Go scheduler works is tricky, and getting rid of libc makes cross-compilation a lot easier.
So in short, it's a pragmatic thing more than anything else.
(Aside: that thread is a little bit outdated by the way, as I do believe there's a reasonably complete Rust coreutils implementation now. Not that I think Rust is a good fit for OpenBSD though – I wish people would stop conflating "safety" with "Rust".)
I understand. I don't actually like it, and I wouldn't want Linux to adopt the same practice; exposing raw syscalls in assembly rather than libc functions allows for a more flexible runtime, since C is a lot more limited (although that in itself invites greater security risk). I was saying that because, if you're asking for more type-safe kernel interfaces and frown upon uses of C, then the OpenBSD team seems like the last people you'd want to talk to. They're true Unix believers, love writing C and assembly, and dislike modern programming languages.
> Aside: that thread is a little bit outdated by the way, ...
Yeah, that thread was more to show that they really dislike the idea of replacing C with memory safe language, and instead say that people who can't program safely in C shouldn't be programming.
bytevolcano:
> I've always subscribed to the idea that too much safety results in too may idiots, and the same is true for all these "safe" programming languages. "Oh I don't have to write any form of bounds-checking, because the language will do it for me."
Nick Holland:
> Idiots who shouldn't be coding, coding. "safe" languages being trusted to be safe when in the hands of idiots. Like you said.
> The more I see of "safe" languages, the more I love assembly. Most people who call themselves programmers...shouldn't.
bytevolcano again (in the context of memory safe languages):
> A good programmer won't even need these languages in the first place. Case in point, the entire OpenBSD dev team. :)
They'd probably be fine if Go dropped support for OpenBSD altogether; they don't seem to have a high opinion of managed languages or their users.
Right, I didn't read all messages in that thread before (why don't these archives just present the entire thread in one page?)
In the end it's just random people posting stuff; you see that on HN as well, but also "it should literally be forbidden to use non-safe languages" on the other extreme end. bytevolcano seems to have just a few posts to the mailing list. Nick Holland is more involved (nick@), but mostly in documentation and that kind of stuff. There are no actual code commits beyond "add fstab example" and that kind of thing.
I happen to know tedu@ (actual OpenBSD developer) does a lot of Go stuff. I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I'd be surprised if he would come close to agreeing with that kind of stuff.
Unfortunately OpenBSD has always attracted its share of "ima very smart for using openbsd unlike poor dumb linux penguins!11" type of people.
In general I don't think OpenBSD people in general would be against safer languages. I mean, they did a lot of work to make a "safer libc" and it includes Perl in base.
I see; I didn't realize they weren't actually OpenBSD developers. That completely changes things.
I had assumed you needed permission or else you'd be blocked for posting on a mailing thread, or something like that, so I perceived everyone there except the asker of the question as an OpenBSD developers.
I'm sorry; I didn't realize I was spreading borderline libel.
I recommend against attempting to divine opinions of “the OpenBSD team” from mailing list randos. Theo is the only OpenBSD developer in that thread.
> They … dislike modern programming languages.
You based this statement on the words of random commenters. And yet OpenBSD maintains packages for these modern programming languages, and OpenBSD developers spend their free time actively sending patches and bug reports to these language projects to keep them running on OpenBSD. Why not look up the opinions of those people before writing sentences like that?
I didn't know they weren't OpenBSD developers, or that they made patches like that. I'm sorry. I would delete my comment, but it's too late to do that.