Comment by emptysongglass

> Claims of Nix is too hard are like the BTRFS is unstable camp (which thankfully has mostly died out): they're holdovers from when these things were true.

This is a grossly misleading comparison. Or at least, it's maybe not the comparison you want to make.

btrfs being unstable persists for a couple of reasons:

- Even casual users have pretty much zero tolerance for a filesystem that self-destructs. Especially when the filesystem integrates RAID and snapshot functionality, so self-destructing takes backup infrastructure with it.

- There are features that are legitimately unstable (RAID5/6), have unexpected side effects (defragmenting breaking reflinks), and seem unfinished (dedup requires external tools)

Nix being too hard to use comes from, well, the stuff I mentioned, which is all from the last few years. Or, the laptop I installed NixOS on just this year, where the install finished, and then the user is left without any guidance how to set up their system. For me, that's OK; I can fire up a terminal and run nano then rebuild the system.

But for any first-time user, I'd expect them to be SOL and stuck spending a Linux evening digging through the Nix manuals to figure out how to configure their system. (I just checked, and "First steps with Nix" starts with "Ad hoc shell environments", not anything to do with `/etc/nixos/configuration.nix`)

If they're a DevOps user who's going to be using it for every day of their job, that's probably time well spent; but if they're a casual user who only wants to maintain the same set of software and settings whenever they get a new computer, it may just be more time-efficient to go through some pain every several years.

For even a power user, they probably need to be working with a lot of software projects with native dependencies, or switching between computers a lot. Or just specifically curious about Nix.

But in any case, I very much disagree that it's just an out-of-date reputation that's holding Nix back. Its functionality is really, really useful and widespread adoption would make language-specific tools somewhat redundant (eg virtualenv). I'm pretty sure the main thing holding it back is that it's just too hard to use and people silently abandon it.

I disagree and that's why I recommended Fleek. What is dead simple to you about Nix is not dead simple to others. Especially given your other comment: it's filled with Nix-isms that most people used to imperative thinking would not grok.

> Like you pointed out, documentation will advise against this approach

If by "documentation" you mean "community documentation", indeed people like to point out that You-Re-Holding-It-Wrong-And-Should-Not-Do-This-As-It-Is-Not-The-Proper-Nix-Way, with which I disagree because Nix is a tool, and wielding it in a way that solves one's problem is one's prerogative. I do agree that doing it in other more complete ways (e.g configuration.nix, shell.nix, flakes) unlocks further helpful stuff but that does not mean doing it this way is not helpful in its own right, especially as the more complete ways come with more knowledge needed, thus facing newcomers with a steeper learning curve.

If by "documentation" you mean "official documentation", it certainly does _not_ advise against this approach: https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/package-management/basic...

> After my initial usage of nix, I switched to following the "best practice" of writing derivations and specifying system dependencies in the configuration.nix .

Which is how it should be, walking along the learning curve: start small, walk forward, and stop at any point that solves your problems in satisfactory ways. configuration.nix is nixos/nix-darwin, but to me that's already a bridge too far to get simple early adoption from newcoming folks.

I find it more friendly to let people start with nix-env, possibly shoving a sequence of nix-env -iA foo in a shell script, then as they get familiar with it, progressively have them realise that they can set up their dev packages per project easily with shell.nix, or their system ones with nixos/nix-darwin configuration.nix instead of lecturing them in doing it "The Right Way".

> If you've used nix enough to memorize them, this probably goes away.

That's my "learning curve" point, and true for any tool. I've seen the same resistance with Docker back then and now everyone takes it for granted, but it was equally mystifying for people at first.

> it's way easier to remember "search" than "--query --available" or "-qa"

I would agree, nonetheless the situation is really not much better for some other package managers that folks seem to have no problem with, e.g pacman is loved yet has an eerily similar --query/-Q, apt-get/apt-cache/dpkg are all over the place in general Debian-based management, including Dockerfiles.

By "have no problem with" I mean I never heard anyone saying "OMG apt/pacman is absolutely inscrutable I cannot use this", which Nix seems to trigger every time.

I will readily admit though is that whatever https://search.nixos.org/packages is doing should be available via command line. Big gripe on my side but it's not an insurmountable barrier.

> Even "nix-env" is sort of weird as a name, because it begs explanation of why "-env"

Is it? People do not seem that taken aback about using "rbenv" or "pyenv" or "virtualenv". I don't think "env" is exactly uncharted territory.

> As for the rest, consider the use case of setting up an environment with Python packages [...] And the problem is, by this point you've long ago lost most software developers

Whoa, this is going much farther than what prompted my initial comment. Fair enough though, I'm the one who made it devolve into project-level management with Python/Ruby dependencies. That said, folding language dependency management into Nix is definitely a very rough area of Nix, one that needs much development to be made easier.

That is exactly why I am advocating for this less dogmatic approach of doing things: have Nix handle your systemwide (via simple nix-env) or per-project (via shell.nix) tools and delegate language dependencies to the dependency tool that people use, reaping both the benefit of nix for setting up a dev env and the benefit of people knowing their tool of choice for their language.

Language dependencies have a huge impedance mismatch between dependency management tools and package managers. There's exactly the same kind of impedance mismatch problem with trying to package some or all language dependencies with a package manager such as apt or pacman or homebrew. Trying to package a gem or wheel in a deb is an exercise in frustration. I don't know if it's still the case but there was a time where npm install -g, pip install --global, or gem install would install stuff where e.g apt or pacman would, and thus screw things up badly.

So I would recommend for a long while: do not attempt to have nix handle everything down to language dependencies at the beginning because the impedance mismatch between these dependency management tools and nix is making it hard. The current state of Nix has no descriptive abstraction on top of it so you are faced with injecting stuff and getting to grips with Nix internals.

I do believe that over time this is solvable though, e.g NixOS modules generally provide nice override points that don't require one to dance with overrideAttrs and self: super.

> They gave up, wrote a dockerfile with `pip install` commands

Interestingly enough, that's sort of what I recommend for newcomers, except not with Docker:

    # shell.nix
    {
      pkgs ? import <nixpkgs> {},
    }:
    let
      # get these python packages from nix
      python_packages = python-packages: [
        python-packages.pip
      ];
    
      # use this pyhton version, and include the above packages
      python = pkgs.python39.withPackages python_packages;
    in pkgs.mkShell {
      buildInputs = [
        python
      ];
    
      shellHook = ''
        # get python version
        export PYTHON_VERSION="$(python -c 'import platform; import re; print(re.sub(r"\.\d+$", "", platform.python_version()))')"
    
        # replicate virtualenv behaviour
        export PIP_PREFIX="$PWD/vendor/python/$PYTHON_VERSION/packages"
        export PYTHONPATH="$PIP_PREFIX/lib/python$PYTHON_VERSION/site-packages:$PYTHONPATH"
        unset SOURCE_DATE_EPOCH
        export PATH="$PIP_PREFIX/bin:$PATH"
      '';
    }

Which makes nix-shell an equivalent of source venv/bin/activate, and then just pip install -r requirements.txt. The interesting bit is that one can control non-python dependencies for python things, e.g if a native python package depends on some C library or a compiler or a CFLAGS. Also, compared to a Dockerfile it is not RUN order dependent. There's also much less fuss about darwin vs linux or intel vs arm. You can stuff CLI stuff in there, be it shellcheck or rsync or fswatch and be sure that everyone is on the same page, no it-fails-oh-wait-my-homebrew-python-is-not-on-the-same-version-as-everyone-else, no it-fails-oh-wait-I-forgot-to-docker-pull-or-docker-build. It walks around a ton of little issues that increase friction with extremely little fuss.

My point is not that Nix is not hard, Nix can be hard... if you go full-tilt, but it can also be immediately useful even with only small, approachable bits here and there. I remain convinced that the people that spend hours on end cobbling up Dockerfiles full of sed hacks and conjuring contrived docker run commands to run on a dog-slow Docker for Mac should not be objectively turned away by 'nix-env -iA' instead of 'brew install' or even making sense of that shell.nix.

That's why I feel like the community's response in the lines of "don't use nix-env" or "flakes!" combined with "here's this nixlang eldritch horror and I can't seem to be able to do this" is unhelpful in reducing the general sentiment that Nix is only approachable - and thus useful - if you write Haskell in your sleep.

That's why I'm trying to make it better with my limited ways so that curious newcomers are not scared away and can benefit from a little bit of nix goodness with little effort.