Comment by jasode
2 years ago
>your desire potentially to join Sam Altman at Microsoft’s new AI Research Lab. Know that if needed, you have a role at Microsoft that matches your compensation and advances our collective mission.
The podcast This Week In Startups brought up an interesting point that many OpenAI employees are on corporate sponsored work visas and they really can't jump ship to Microsoft. Those visas are tied to OpenAI.
Not sure how many employees it affects and of those, how many are "key people".
(No doubt that Microsoft already understand the logistics of all this and still want to signal their open arms regardless.)
Microsoft is a juggernaut from every angle that has direct ties to all arms of the U.S. government -- they can petition whatever backdoor deals they need to keep the knowledge and talent inside the U.S. rather than exporting it back overseas. They can angle it as a matter of national security without so much as a hint of difficulty.
Any visa issues will be resolved within a matter of days, not even weeks or months.
> Any visa issues will be resolved within a matter of days, not even weeks or months.
Agree. Further I'd add forget Microsoft, even at typical F500 company these visa concerns will be rather small so as not to brought at level of executive attention. Any large company has immigration/visa related department dealing with such things every day with separate piles for critical vs normal employees.
Yes, very much this. The rules are different when you are a >$1T company. You have Congresspeople on speed dial. Also, the Biden administration know what is at stake with their AI Executive Order. It will get done.
You don't even have to be a $1T company. Your body shops and outsourcing firm managers buy Green cards for their pets at office all the time.
Of all the things, Visas/GCs are the least of the issues here. Think of it like a joining bonus for their immigrant employees.
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Nope this makes no sense and I say this as someone on a corporate sponsored visa. There are primarily 2 visas. The first most common is H1b, H1b transfers are some of the easiest things to do. I have moved from a trillion dollar company to a 3 person company on a H1b transfer. The company just needs a lawyer to do the paperwork and prove they are a company.
The next visa is O1. O1 visa allows transfer only if you work in the same field/ goal as your original visa. In this case it is straightforward, since they are doing literally the same job in a different company. Microsoft applied for thousands of visas a year, there really is no issue here regarding visas except immigrant employee anxiety.
Microsoft is no stranger to the visa process. Several of the visas like H1B allow transfers, albeit it will take time and effort to accomplish.
Microsoft, the large american tech giant, is trying to save a 10B dollar investment from boneheads who just blew up the company they invested in.
Do you really think they're going to feign an offer to join, but then say "oh your immigration status is too complex"? With all of their resources?
H-1B Visas are transferable with an application; and you can legally join a new company before the application is approved (but it’s, of course, just a little risky).
I don’t think employees would expect Microsoft to drop the ball though.
At this level, MS could go to the White House and insist that keeping these people within the US is a matter of urgent national security, for the same reason there are Nvidia export restrictions to China.
These are not your average groups of H1B workers.
I love how people in the comments are just diregarding that simple fact. If you are "just" doing run-of-the-mill software engineering for a non-FAANG then sure look before you leap.
As an employee of OpenAI, that went before congress for AI safety, jumping to Microsoft? I wouldn't be surprised if their internal immigration division already has documents stamped by high-level officials to keep those people in the country as a matter of national security. These people are not leaving the US unless they want to.
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>>These are not your average groups of H1B workers.
Its strange this has to be even said.
I knew doctors who got their Green cards fairly easily. Replacing these doctors is next to impossible. For starters, its just these are rarest of the rare talents. Even making such doctors is very hard because it takes decades of academic training, and practice. These are things with close to 100% drop out rate, and other requirements- which means you just have to make exceptions to have these people in.
Most work visas can be transferred to new companies fairly easily - it's almost trivial. I don't think thats a big deal.
>it's almost trivial. I don't think thats a big deal.
Somebody downvoted sibling comment from x86x87 but they didn't give a reason.
It seems the concern for it not being trivial is supported by immigration attorneys. An example excerpt from https://banyan.law/how-risky-is-the-h-1b-transfer/ :
>My honest assessment is that before 2016, I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend changing jobs upon the filing of the H-1B. USCIS approved almost 100% of legitimate, well-constructed transfer petitions “back then”.
>Now, it’s kind of a mess. H-1B denials have increased by 27%. Requests for Evidence (often feared as a potential denial indicator) are now issued at a 60% clip (a 40% increase).
>So, I’ve changed my tune and so have many others. Many companies are now encouraging employees not to give notice until the H-1B is approved, assuming premium processing is alive. We no longer feel 100% certain that your transfer petition will be approved, and we, therefore, do not want you to bear the suddenly real risks outlined above.
The before and after statistics are apples and oranges. Hard to say that says anything significant at all. And a request for evidence that OpenAI employees are top of the game and that we don't want them leaving the country is trivial. MSFT and Altman team write one response and affix it to all applications.
Transfering? Yes, it's possible. But it's not trivial and, post trump immigration bs, there is a real possibility transfer will not go through. Also usually this takes a few weeks/months.
I read something a few days on another unrelated thread from the AMA [0] with an immigration lawyer who works with YC companies that the administration prioritizing AI-related visas. Based on that, I could see folks making exceptions/expediting the process to stop brain-drain.
Link: [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38207857
Edit - added link
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we are talking about a company worth over two trillion dollars.
i think they can transfer visas quite easy compared to other companies.
H-1B transfer is not trivial, takes time to be approved, and while you can start working at the new position when the application is filed, if its then not approved you can't legally work at the new job anymore and are out of status.
It will be approved. Bureaucracies don't actually like negative PR, and interfering with this would bring the roof down on them.
> that matches your compensation
That is going to go over well with current microsoft employees.
0% raise and lower bonus pool in 2023 for Satyas engineers
then the $1M-$2M/year OpenAI folks who never built a profitable product enter the building
All time high stock though...
If it wasn't such a PITA to prep for interviews I think companies would have to give out better raises to current employees to avoid mass attrition.
My conspiracy theory is that companies keep using leetcode style interviews because they know people don't want to study for them which makes them less likely to change jobs for more money.
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Well, this is hardly ever the first time this happens at Microsoft. The veterans are probably already used to it.
It's sounding more and more like a bluff. Everyone at Microsoft Research has to be seething at this.
If MSR people wanted OpenAI salaries they could have applied to OpenAI.
Why? Hiring a bunch of great engineers with relevant experience usually goes over well in teams I been in.
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LinkedIn is one of the highest paying companies in tech while MS pays peanuts. Seems like MS has done this before.
Hmm, As some body who has watched the Visa thing from quite close quarters and lost, but saw others win. Let me tell you something. Getting a Green card is something your company can make it happen if they wanted to. Its just how much money they can spend to cook up documentation to justify your case.
A competent immigration attorney, can get you GC in a year if the company was ready to pay for it.
OTOH if you go in the normal EB1 lane it could take an eternity to get one, because now the pleb rules apply to you. Or worse if your bosses won't support you, you likely will not even complete the Visa time. So its really what the top people say will happen in these cases.
If you are important enough that you have to be there, for a company like Microsoft, these are some what like the cash they spend on food stocked in the floor pantry/kitchen areas.
They will just buy you a Green card.
Microsoft will make it happen. Even if 350 people are in this situation that is nothing to the immigration arm of Microsoft.
Commenters raising visa issues, but saying that these will be not a problem due to national security. It's certainly very favorable, but I don't know I'd say it's 100%, given bitter divisions in government and recent trouble with filling military positions due to Tuberville. Presumably the administration would have to spend some political capital to do this. Would they? I think so, but would not bet at 100%.
ICE is a part of the executive branch. There is no Congressional issue.
Yeah, if they are employees of the non-profit it could be an issue, because they could be on visas that cannot transfer to a for-profit entity. If they are on something like H1b, then that should not be an issue AFAIK.
The fact that work visas are tied to a concrete employer is the biggest slavery scam the US is pulling off.
I'm continually amazed at how it's still considered OK to call things "slavery" that aren't actually slavery.
This, in an era when we're editing flowcharts, technical documents and schematic diagrams to avoid potentially offensive "master/slave" nomenclature.
Well, so is health insurance, eh.
Paying health insurance premiums with pre tax W-2 income is tied to an employer.
Which is not comparable to having to leave the country you live in and possibly have started a family in because you change employers.
Isn't this a thing everywhere? I have the same in UK.
In the Netherlands, if you're here on a highly-skilled migrant visa and leave your job, you get 90 days to get a new one. The only requirement is that the company you work for is also recognised as an employer of highly-skilled migrants.
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Not in Canada. My Post Graduate Work Visa allowed me to work wherever. Or not work at all. The US has so many variations of slavery-lite it is genuinely disturbing.
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Doesn't the UK have a general skilled-worker visa?
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That doesn't make it any less slavery
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Many countries have immigration systems that are similarly bad the U.S.'s.
Add the endless wait time for green card for Indians and you have the perfect recipe for indentured servant exploitation and wage suppression
I think a lot of countries do it this way. I wish they didn't but I think they do, but I may be wrong about that.
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