Comment by nerdponx
2 years ago
This.
I have always been very very skeptical of the motives and intentions of various BDS groups over the years. Lots of issues with hypocrisy, propaganda, and double standards.
But that doesn't excuse the murder of thousands of civilians in collective retribution for the murder of a few dozen.
It's possible for both things to be true: Hamas is bad and committed a heinous act of terrorism, and Israel is committing a horrifying atrocity against Palestinian civilians in retaliation.
> But that doesn't excuse the murder of thousands of civilians in collective retribution for the murder of a few dozen.
1,200 Israelis were killed, not "a few dozen". 250 were kidnapped and held hostage, of those about 130 are still being held.
Second, Israel isn't "murdering" civilians in collective retribution. It's fighting a war against a neighboring "government" that has just invaded it, slaughtered thousands of its citizens, and has promised to do it again and again.
Many civilians are dying in this war, which is a horrible tragedy, and is unfortunately true of every war, which is one reason wars are so terrible. But it's hard to say this war isn't justified given the promises of Hamas.
>Many civilians are dying […] But it's hard to say this war isn't justified given the promises.
This is exactly the rhetoric that made Hamas think it was okay to kill Israeli civilians. Both think the other is an existential threat.
I'm sorry, but it's not "rhetoric" for me. Hamas invaded Israel, killed many people, and has promised to do it again, all while continuing to fire rockets at us.
Hamas has promised to do this over and over again, saying that October 7th was "just a rehearsal".
I'm not at all saying that every action is justified, but fighting to stop Hamas from having the capability of doing this again is definitely justified.
(And for what it's worth, the "other side" thinking October 7th was justified makes no sense, because it isn't going to help them achieve their actual goals, only cause immense suffering to their own side. In that sense Hamas's actions are double-crimes - both killing Israelis, and doing so in a manner that was bound to cause the death of their own populations.)
Then maybe the Palestinians should oust whoever fires thousands of rockets into their neighboring country forcing their neighbor to respond in self defense.
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> Second, Israel isn't "murdering" civilians in collective retribution.
Dehumanization is the first step to a genocide.
Additionally, this does not explain the violence being done in the West Bank to Palestinians, a population that is notably not ruled by Hamas.
What did I say that was dehumanizing? If you're talking about me putting the word "murder" in quotes, it's because casualties of war aren't usually referred to as victims of murder, but I was quoting the parent post.
> Additionally, this does not explain the violence being done in the West Bank to Palestinians, a population that is notably not ruled by Hamas.
There are definitely Hamas operatives there as well, not to mention a public that is overwhelmingly supportive of Hamas's actions. I'm not saying this to say they should be "punished", I'm saying this to explain that there are genuine security threats that Israel needs to deal with in the WB as well.
That said, some of the violence there is totally unjustified, especially violence instigated by settlers and not the IDF.
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As far as i understand, the main goal of the Israel operation is to remove Hamas capability to launch another Oct.7-style attack in the future: prevention, not retaliation (though one can argue if there is a way to achieve this goal with less cost on civilians).
> one can argue if there is a way to achieve this goal with less cost on civilians)
Not really, no. There's no argument.
The entire world is calling for a ceasefire because so many civilians are being murdered.
The IDF listening to its own intelligence assessments alone would’ve prevented Hamas from launching that attack. Hence what they are doing is mass retaliation against the entire population of Gaza, not to mention the killings in the West Bank and the suppression of domestic dissent against the war.
If I tell you someone will break into your house sometime in the future...maybe tomorrow, maybe 5 years from now, and actually maybe never...how would you change your behavior?
There was some intelligence about a potential threat, but hardly anything specific that they could easily respond to. Coupled with the fact that Hamas has their own counterintelligence laying out deceptions in the months leading up to the attack.
I guess Israel could have just stationed a few battalions over the full length of the border....forever.
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The current approach will not achieve this goal. Overwhelming force doesn't stop insurrections unless it goes all the way to genocide or ethnic cleansing. That's what makes the argument especially pointless.
Without looking it up, how many people do you think Hamas terrorists killed on October 7th?
The initial news reports here in the US mainstream media made it seem like dozens or hundreds at most. The music festival seemed like the worst of it.
Ok, but we've known for a whole now that the number is around 1200 killed. Not what most would call "a few dozen".
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