Comment by dh2022
2 years ago
Re: "Let's also separate Palestinian civilians from those exerting power unto them in Gaza" - I do not think you can. A lot of Palestinians are radicalized. What do you think a father who lost his kids in an airstrike will do next? Or a brother who lost his sister / brother? Do you think these people will care about rule of law, or turn the other cheek, etc...?
Re: "any other way is a can of worms". I agree with this statement.
Putting these two statements together means there will never be peace in Palestine. It sucks....
> I do not think you can. A lot of Palestinians are radicalized.
Yes
> What do you think a father who lost his kids in an airstrike will do next?
That’s not how people get radicalised. Students are taught in Gaza that the Jews stole their land, that Jews are from Europe, that dying as a martyr is the best death and that when they grow up they should kill as many Jews as possible. Many of Hamas’ fighters are only 15 or 16 years old.
We learnt a lot since 9/11 about how radicalization works. It's not happening mainly through personal trauma, but through indoctrination, usually through schools and universities.
Sageman’s “bunch of guys” theory has really won out now that anybody can interact with terrorists on social media. You can’t run a big terrorist organization made up of people seeking revenge because they’re power-seeking and will replace you. Instead you take a bunch of guys out of college, give them a way to seek status that conveniently involves them dying before they can replace you, and then go out and fundraise.
We can’t extrapolate 9/11 to all instances of radicalization but exclude Israel.
I can tell you exactly how I would react if someone were to do something to my daughter, which is the biggest source of joy to me right now.
So what exactly is your solution then? To create 10-20 times the suffering that has led to the growth of Hamas to begin with?
But let's say, for the sake of the argument, that that line of reasoning is justified, which for the record, I don't think it is. How does that then justify the violence, and the killings happening in the West Bank? How does it justify shooting Palestinians in the US?
Nobody here wants to hear it, but the only country that has gotten a hold of its Islamist terrorism problem without mass bombing is China. And contrary to what people in the US like to hear the Organization of Islamic Cooperation which comprises dozens of Muslim countries, have praised Chinas efforts to build infrastructure and schools. The US shouts about Uyghur rights all the time and then bombs them the moment they hang out with the Taliban for training[1].
Even the guy who came up with the Uyghur genocide says that the people working in the factories are treated well, and yet that's somehow a bad thing[2].
[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/u-s-targets-chinese-uighu...
[2] https://twitter.com/adrianzenz/status/1732406580623098274
I did not justify that line of reasoning. I am just saying is human nature.
The parents of Ethan Crumbley's victims asked for maximum penalty - sounds a lot like eye for an eye right and is right here in the US. A dad of one of Nasser's victims asked to be alone with Nassar for 5 minutes. When the judge (obviously) declined that request that guy jumped over the fence in the courtroom trying to get to Nassar.
What do you think regular people would do when their kids are killed? Or their brothers and sisters are killed?
Some people recover, others don’t. That is actually how humans are.
I remember reading about a psychology case of two sisters getting constantly raped by their father.
One of them finally grabbed the dad’s rifle and shot him. One of them recovered and went on to live a normal life and the other spent the rest of her life in treatment.
But what’s ultimately clear is that Israel in its current form is not sustainable. Either they change, meaning they stop calling and treating people they don’t like, like animals, or they launch an all out war with all their neighbors in which case all bets are off. The media is guilty in this. If they hadn’t perpetuated this myth that the USA is infinitely powerful and will defeat anyone standing in Israel’s way they would have had to find a way to arrange themselves with their neighbors.
For some people over time this becomes a will to make peace so others don't have to suffer like they did. The immediate reaction is revenge but eventually you come to terms. Otherwise conflicts would never end, but they do.
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