Comment by richardfeynman
1 year ago
Yes, of course there is reason to suspect Hamas is untrustworthy. I'm not trying to argue one should take Israel's word at face value (of course you should subject it to scrutiny as well), but yes, Israel, a liberal democratic state with a free press, strong left-wing movement, and the second biggest tech sector out of silicon valley, is far more trustworthy than Hamas, a repressive, fundamentalist, authoritarian regime with no free press. This doesn't mean they always tell the truth, but there is no equivalence between them and Hamas.
In terms of specific reasons to doubt the Gaza Health Ministry numbers specifically, I could go on forever about that, but I don't see the point of doing so on HN. It's not a tech-related question.
> Israel, a liberal democratic state with a free press
Israeli law allows news censorship by the IDF. Currently, if you are a news outlet working in Israel, you have to pass your war coverage by them [1,2] even the CNN is forced to do this [3]. I don't know, but you seem to have a strange definition of free press. Should I list some of the series of scandals of IDF caught laying in the past to complete the picture? Just remember that they tried to convince people that the words [Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday] in Arabic are Hamas members names [4].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Military_Censor
[2] https://theintercept.com/2023/12/23/israel-military-idf-medi...
[3] https://theintercept.com/2024/01/04/cnn-israel-gaza-idf-repo...
[4] https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231116-...
Can you name a country that doesn't allow news censorship by their military during combat? The same exact thing happens with US journalists embedded with the US military. It's obvious operational security. I'm guessing you don't speak hebrew, but Israeli journalists are even more critical of their government than American journalists.
> Israeli journalists are even more critical of their government than American journalists.
Free to criticize but get jailed by the 100s: https://cpj.org/reports/2024/01/2023-prison-census-jailed-jo... (that's not free press)
I believe there is very little reason to assume the numbers are not accurate. Not only have their numbers been fairly accurate in previous conflicts, but also many US officials believe them to be accurate if not underreported.
It feels more like an Israeli attempt at using fog of war and the masses ignorance on the matter to soften the reaction and spread doubt about the real numbers. As this talking point was continously used by Israeli spokespersons even after US officials believed these numbers to be fairly accurate. I would be happy to be corrected, I wish the numbers are actually less, and would want this to be the reality.
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-s-officials-have-gro...
"I believe there is very little reason to assume the numbers are not accurate."
How are the numbers generated?
Not the OP, but does it matter if I specifically know how the numbers are generated? I'll absolutely appeal to authority and accept that the United States, various United Nations agencies, MSF, etc accept these numbers as reasonably accurate and acknowledge that they're in a far better position to understand the provenance of the data than I'll ever be.
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>Israel, a liberal democratic state with a free press, strong left-wing movement, and the second biggest tech sector out of silicon valley
With Netanyahu and other far right parties in power I'm not sure this is argument you think it is.
Also not great numbers with the free press either:
https://rsf.org/en/index
Better than some in the region, but not great.
And the refrain gets old when used as a cover for Israels terrible actions, but it actively makes me ill nowadays, maybe not as ill as "IDF is the most moral army in the world" when I think about the tens of thousands of kids they have blown up (killed and injured) I suppose.
The blame for kids dying lies on Hamas for (1) recruiting child soldiers; (2) building weapons factories in children's bedrooms; (3) building terror tunnels under schools; (4) preventing civilians from evacuating from the north... I could go on.
Not sure if you're a Hebrew reader, but you don't know what you're talking about with regard to journalism in Israel. Have you ever read Gideon Levy? There is tons of criticism of the government and its conduct in this war in Israeli media.
Sorry these facts make you ill. Get better soon!
The blame for the kids dying lies firmly with the IDF/Israeli government. They have agency and they have made a choice to seal borders, cut off food, water and electricity, and bomb the living shit out of a captive population. Hamas have their own crimes they can answer for. I wouldn't mind if the leadership of Israel, IDF and Hamas were dragged before the ICC war crimes. Lock them all up, tbh.
Reporters Without Borders are a widely recognised and reputable organisation. Here's the direct link to the entry on Israel:
https://rsf.org/en/country/israel
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A liberal democratic state? You consider likkud a liberal party? I suppose Irgun was liberal too.
That's like saying America isn't a liberal democratic state because of Trump and the republican party. Israel is a liberal democracy, far more liberal than America, and there were hundreds of thousands of people who marched against Netanyahu.
Israel has a parliamentary system, no? It seems appropriate to blame the parties that forms the coalition for the behavior of the state, and there's certainly no shortage of illiberal actions Israel has done against their own citizens in the last three months to point to.
Regardless, our (USA) parties are in fact the biggest blockers to our functioning correctly as a liberal democracy. One is desperate for votes from anyone, the other party is terrified to pass anything or imagine any kind of future that isn't a slightly less grim version of what the republicans offer. Just by our ability to come to a consensus and do things as a country, we seem to have ground to a complete halt. So yea, people should be a lot more critical of whether or not we're actually espousing the democratic ideals we claim.
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> I'm not trying to argue one should take Israel's word at face value (of course you should subject it to scrutiny as well), but yes, Israel, a liberal democratic state with a free press, strong left-wing movement, and the second biggest tech sector out of silicon valley, is far more trustworthy than Hamas, a repressive, fundamentalist, authoritarian regime with no free press.
None of this has any bearing on whether or not Israel's word is actually worth anything (...or Hamas's word, for that matter).
Yes it does. When the Hamas government lies in Gaza (say about a death toll) there is no one to question them or dispute their narrative. By contrast, in Israel, when the government lies it's a national pasttime to criticize and dispute them. For this reason, it's easier to tell when the Israeli government is lying than when Hamas lies.