Comment by throwaway421967
1 year ago
Since the comment that I replied to was flagged, I'm posting this here because it is simply a statement of facts.
- Judge Barak's numbers on civilian deaths on 7th october are simply wrong and could've been easily checked. 766 civilians were killed, 1200 was the total number of deaths (including armed forces).
- Israel's own numbers say "2 civilians killed for every one militant"[1], that's 66% in the Gaza offensive.
- 766 / 1200 = 63.8%
- 63.8% and 66% are indeed close numbers, don't see why would it be flagged.
Of course, the numbers claimed by other NGOs / UN make it worse. But Israel's numbers are sufficient to make that claim.
[1] - https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-m...
> 63.8% and 66% are indeed close numbers, don't see why would it be flagged…Israel's numbers are sufficient to make that claim
What claim?
As far as civilian casualty rates go, mid 60s is nothing to be proud of, but square in the middle of the pack when it comes to modern wars [1].
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8581199/#B12
Regarding the people that died on October 7, one important detail is evidence surfaced it appears a sizeable fraction was killed due to Israeli military attacking militants and hostages without distinction, to avoid capture, following the so called Hannibal directive:
https://thecradle.co/articles/israeli-army-ordered-mass-hann...
https://thegrayzone.com/2023/11/25/israels-october-7-propaga...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive
Why is this flagged/down voted? Its just a plain statement of fact, supported by credible sources and references. Here's some more references if people think this didn't happen. The IDF attacked and fired on the Nova festival goers with Apache helicopters [1], an Israeli tank fired shells at Kibbutz Be'eri killing hostages and children, and stories of eight babies killed at the kibbutz have been proven to be false, among other things [3], [4]
1. https://www.businessinsider.com/idf-mistakenly-hit-festival-...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be%27eri_massacre#Survivors'_t...
3. https://archive.is/Zn3Bt
4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L91kG_bYsn0
It is downvoted because it said "sizable fraction", which is a conspiracy theory.
It is true that there were a few incidents, but they only account for a very small fraction of the death toll.
9 replies →
[flagged]
1 reply →
As far as has been credibly reported, it wasn't a "sizeable fraction", it was a very small number. There's only one incident I know of that is verified.
I'm sure more will surface - such is war. Therefore I want to make it very clear - it is not an important detail, despite you calling it such. Hamas are the ones that attacked - if in the process of trying to stop these attacks, the IDF inadvertantly killed Israeli civilians, that is tragic - but is completely the fault of Hamas. This is true both legally and morally.
It is absolutely not "true both legally and morally." It all depends on scale and purpose of the operation. If israeli military acted with disregard to the lives of non combatants, that would account to war crimes, against their own population. They have history of war crimes against their own forces, called Hannibal doctrine, so I won't surprised if they have same directives against civilians.
4 replies →
IDF's own reporting calls the amount of friendly fire casualties on Oct 7 "immense". Your interpretation is more conservative than IDF's own analysis and reporting on their own evidence - that's suspicious.
Furthermore there is Israeli reporting on the practical use of Hannibal Directive during Oct 7, which is deliberate killing of military and civilian hostages. Israeli reporting claims that the use of this directive may have been responsible for a "large" amount of hostage casualties.
Despite official recognition of the "immense friendly fire", IDF also reports that they refuse further investigation because they believe it would be "immoral", so there is deliberate obfuscation at play.
>Israel’s army on Tuesday admitted that an “immense and complex quantity” of what it calls “friendly fire” incidents took place on 7 October.
>The key declaration was buried in the penultimate paragraph of an article by Yoav Zitun, the military correspondent of Israeli outlet Ynet.
>It is the first known official army admission that a significant number of the hundreds of Israelis who died on 7 October were killed by Israel itself, and not by Hamas or other Palestinian resistance factions.
>Citing new data released by the Israeli military, Zitun wrote that: “Casualties fell as a result of friendly fire on October 7, but the IDF [Israeli military] believes that … it would not be morally sound to investigate” them.
5 replies →
[flagged]
[flagged]
[flagged]
When Brits were firebombing German cities, that had very little to do with freeing anyone from anything. Even at the time it was recognized by many as an act of revenge, and it's hard to not take the same impression from how Israel is conducting itself in Gaza, especially given some telling remarks from Israeli leadership.
> at the time it was recognized by many as an act of revenge
In part. Air power was new at the time, and there was legitimate strategic ambiguity around the military value of removing war factories’ workforces. (This is why Germany and Britain bombed by night while America bombed by day.)
2 replies →
Was it not? The war was not over and so no-one was freed, yet.
Regarding Dresden, from wikipedia...
> United States Air Force reports, declassified decades later, noted as a major rail transport and communication centre, housing 110 factories and 50,000 workers in support of the continued Nazi German war effort
It's interesting that we keep quite a critical view of modern politicians, yet when discussing on the field interactions we assume that armies of people, all like one, follow the bloodthirsty orders from commanders above.
[flagged]
> Big difference is that Israel is not targeting civilians on purpose
I think this is not a justified statement. Keeping in mind hat israeli government is clearly very far right, and on multiple occasions have brought up deranged things about Amalek, about "no innocents in Gaza", I think one can establish a reasonable doubt about the true intent of idf actions.
Israel is not targeting civilians, thats a fact. It gains nothing from hitting them, and trying it best to evacuate them to safe zones. Why would they try to hit civilians? and if they did, why they didnt try to fire into the safe zones? (whom Hamas have fired rockets into Israel from multiple times, yet Israel didnt attack in order to not hit civilians, while risking its own civilians) The people making decisions right now are not far-right, the far-right have been moved to the side line when it comes to the war decision making.Instead Gants and Eizenkot joined, whom both are moderate right. All the sentence you quoted are out of context and were said just after a few days that Israel suffered the biggest massacre, the entire country was in trauma and in emotions.
4 replies →