Comment by Vinnl
2 years ago
> why does Signal still require a phone number in the first place?
From https://signal.org/blog/signal-is-expensive/
> We use third-party services to send a registration code via SMS or voice call in order to verify that the person in possession of a given phone number actually intended to sign up for a Signal account. This is a critical step in helping to prevent spam accounts from signing up for the service and rendering it completely unusable—a non-trivial problem for any popular messaging app.
I'm not sure why you need to assume that it will be linked back to your real identity; I haven't seen anything that indicates any motivation to do something like that. I'm all for being cautious, but being overly cynical can lead to letting perfect being the enemy of the good.
For the spam part, I commented below how’s that doesn’t work and it doesn’t even make sense for a messaging app.
> I'm not sure why you need to assume that it will be linked back to your real identity;
I’m not assuming, only North America (edit: and some European countries) doesn’t require an ID for a phone number (1), and even in here, you would use it in other services that are linked to your real ID like banks or paying the phone bill online. The concept simply boils down to as soon as you find an account’s phone number, it’s a game over for that said privacy.
(1) https://www.comparitech.com/blog/vpn-privacy/sim-card-regist...
> The concept simply boils down to as soon as you find an account’s phone number, it’s a game over for that said privacy
You completely misunderstand what kind of privacy Signal aims to achieve. Signal protects you from eavesdropping and data hoarding, two major privacy issues with solutions like Facebook Messenger for example.
They do not and have never claimed to offer a service where “privacy” means nobody knows who anyone is, it isn’t Tor and I wouldn’t want it to be.
If you don’t like the goals and design choices of Signal, just use another service.
There are benefits of the choices they’ve made, namely ensuring that most users of the service are “real people”, which I think is great. It’s not a social network, it’s a messaging app between friends that solves issues presented by alternatives like SMS or Instagram; that’s it.
> Signal protects you from eavesdropping and data hoarding
How on Earth collecting a phone number may be considered as not data hoarding?
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Matrix and XMPP also provide privacy without requiring a phone number
(Or a phone, even)
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> Signal protects you from eavesdropping and data hoarding
Do they?! We can ask Tucker Carlsons about that https://www.reddit.com/r/signal/comments/16evuej/did_the_nsa...
As long as you can’t host and use your own server, you should never assume that.
> There are benefits of the choices they’ve made, namely ensuring that most users of the service are “real people”
You communicate with your colleagues and clients over emails and you know they are real, you probably play games too and use discord and you know they are real, meanwhile you can be talking to bot in twitter that they are registered with a “real” phone number.
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You lose anonymity. You do not lose privacy, which is still secured by the message encryption.
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Neither Signal nor Telegram allow to pay a small amount in cryptocurrency to prove you are not a spammer. This shows that they are really interested in knowing who is their user.
It's either that, or perhaps they're looking for a solution that works for 99% of people.
There are places where one's mobile phone is effectively one's identity. South Korea for example:
<https://www.nfcw.com/2022/10/20/379863/south-korea-to-roll-o...>
Sure, but that means that your phone number is linked to your identity even without Signal? There's no additional data that Signal links to it, other than that you're a Signal user and when you sent your last message.
Your previous question was "I'm not sure why you need to assume that it will be linked back to your real identity?"
If it's not possible to buy a phone without a strong attestation of identity, as is the general case in at least one country, then the identity relationship is baked in.
It's probably possible to buy a burner phone even in South Korea. But for those who are using their standard-issue phone with Signal, the problem most certainly exists.
And even in countries where there isn't some national phone-as-identifier policy, effectively most people's phone numbers tie them to their real-space identity even if there's no explicit personal data association[1], and in most cases, phone number, IMEI, AAID, and/or billing data (credit card payment authorisation) provide far greater assurance.
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Notes:
1. <https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2023/11/debunking-myth-anonymo...>
2. IMEI: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Mobile_Equipment...>, AAID: <https://support.google.com/authorizedbuyers/answer/3221407?h...> <https://noyb.eu/en/buy-phone-get-tracker-unauthorized-tracki...>
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