Comment by skinkestek
2 years ago
In Norway it is rather the other way:
We all know (if we stop and think) that a person can be both a teacher and a terrorist.
But according to media here almost every victim except top Hamas brass seems to be referred to by their whatever else they were besides terrorists and the terrorists (or even just soldier) part get hushed down.
Can you site an example of this please?
It's contradictory to my understanding of what is happening.
By that, I mean, when the few remaining police left in Northern Gaza, who had reported to be critical to providing security for aid deliveries (and involved in coordination with Israel) where assassinated recently by Israel, and claimed as high ranking Hamas targets it pretty much cemented my opinion that nothing is true, or believable from Israel in this conflict.
How are you defining terrorist here as well? As other than the horrific events of October 7th, and the hostages from that day, the only visible acts of violence and terror associated with Palestine appear to be towards anyone Palestinian, journalists, aid workers and medical staff.
> How are you defining terrorist here as well? As other than the horrific events of October 7th, and the hostages from that day, the only visible acts of violence and terror associated with Palestine appear to be towards anyone Palestinian, journalists, aid workers and medical staff.
You can start with the large scale, multi year campaign of using MLRS ramps to shoot barrages of unguided rockets from Gaza and Lebanon into Israel.
That is indiscriminate - or even targeting civilians directly.
But because Israel has gone to extreme lengths to counter it there are few causalities these days and combined with medias extreme one-sidedness that means we don't even hear when they hit a hospital in Israel last year.
Cynically speaking, Iron Dome has been an expensive PR disaster for Israel, but that is what one get for caring about ones own citizens and not being allowed to just do counter battery fire until the enemy stops.
When people complain that disadvantaged people fighting asymmetrically use "unguided missiles" it makes me think that we need to provide them with the technology and means of production and infrastructure to shoot smart missiles instead.
That could in theory allow the asymmetris side to kill less civilians and more military targets.
Would that make the whole situation better? There would no longer be outrage that they use -unguided- missiles.
The unguided missiles that are used to today are of such poor quality that they seldom hit anything. A majority are tracked by Irondome but never targeted since the system predicts it wont do any harm
Properly targeted missiles would be far more likely to hit a target unless Iron Dome manages to shoot it down.
In the end is it not the case that "unguided" missiles are an advantage for IDF rather than a problem?
2 replies →
My understanding of what you have said:
Israel has had rockets fired at it. It was frightening for the population (understandably), but it didn't affect us much.
So I agree that's an impact of terrorism. But, it's really saying we haven't been impacted since October 7th is it not?
Not a criticism, and a good thing. My response is just related to earlier questions. Which are now reopened.
1 reply →
> As other than the horrific events of October 7th, and the hostages from that day, the only visible acts of violence and terror associated with Palestine appear to be towards anyone Palestinian
That's a wildly inaccurate statement. There has been continual rockets fired into Israel, as well fairly regular incidents of stabbings, shootings, etc.
https://www.tzevaadom.co.il/en/
https://www.timesofisrael.com/three-seriously-wounded-in-ter...
Not intending to make any justification or moral comparison in either direction, but it is objectively untrue that violence/terror has only been in one direction post Oct 7th
Fair point. Apologies for not mentioning that.
Not sure what's the point of your last paragraph. Clearly there have been many documented visible "acts of violence" towards the IDF in Gaza. There have also been rockets fired from Gaza into Israel for weeks since Oct 7th and even in recent days. Plenty of "visible" acts of violence. By the way, Hamas also killed Palestinians they suspected of collaborating with Israel during this time.
Hamas Police is Hamas. Hamas is a terrorist organization (e.g. where I live in Canada). I.e. everyone in Hamas is a terrorist, at least in Canada, the US, the EU, and I'm pretty sure in Israel. They earned that by indiscriminately attacking civilians and according to organizations like Amnesty International committing crimes against humanity.
Soldiers, even if they commit war crimes, are not generally labelled as terrorists. I know sucks to be a terrorist. They fight by different rules so they get different names (they wear uniforms etc.).
The palestinians have a right to violent resistance to the occupation. On the Gaza strip they're denied international relations and trade so they can only make very primitive military equipment, which means that to reach an effect at all they pretty much have to fire unguided rockets into Israel. When they tried non-violent protest against the occupation, the "March of Return", by demonstrating at the border they were systematically mutilated by the IDF.
There is an alternative, sure, prepare for a year and then invade Israel. Which they did, after decades of "mowing the lawn" as the israelis call it.
The terror organisation classification of Hamas isn't as much about the political party or its affiliated militia as manufactured consent to relations with Israel and traditions among colonial states. The modern 'West' usually calls its enemies terrorist, like it did during the Mau Mau uprising. This is why so few states agree with this classification.
You don't have to like Hamas but compared to the PA they're not very corrupt, and since they stopped doing suicide bombings they've been quite successful as a resistance movement. Since several years back they've also been quite good at unifying and coordinating the political parties and militias on the Gaza strip in preparation for and during periods of israeli military aggression, including with their main competitor in Palestinian Islamic Jihad, socialists from PFLP/DFLP/Fatah movement, Iran's Mujahideen movement and so on.
Hamas isn't just a political party with a militia, it's also a charity movement. To most people it seems weird to call people terrorists because they take care of their vulnerable neighbours and run soup kitchens and the like.
69 replies →
What are the documented, visible acts of violence towards the IDF this year? I'm not questioning there haven't been any but it's difficult to imagine a more aggressive, punitive force at present. Everything I hear about them is them being the aggressor/instigator and in a high level of cases executioner.
On the execution of civilian police I don't find it acceptable to label civilians as you want and then execute them. Those are obvious war crimes. In the case I'm talking about the group of police were some of the last able to assist aid getting through and had been doing that in coordination with the IDF.
I find the reporting we get (UK) very IDF/Israel based, with no real perspective from Palestinians, but still it's clear that the deaths and suffering in the current conflict day to day are pretty much all a result of Israel's deliberate actions. It's not excusable what is happening.
Does it matter what you are called if you are deliberately committing war crimes?
If nothing else what will Israel be like as a place to live in with so many people who have deliberately and consciously decided to kill, starve, maime and persecute so many others? How will Palestine and Israel ever recover?
2 replies →
The person you're debating with is not interested in genuine debate. Look at their profile - it's an alt account for their religious dogma they're too embarrassed to associate with their public persona.
That is backed by them refusing to answer you with specific examples, engaging in a gish-gallop instead.
I am absolutely not ashamed.
I am just smart enough not to make it trivially easy for the entire internet to harass me.
Maybe it's because the overwhelming majority of the people being killed are actually just regular people?
That’s always the case.
At 2:1 civilians to combatants, this is an unusually low civilian death count.
Trying my best to assume this comment in good faith... Low compared to what? For reference, in the recent war in Ukraine (post 2022), there have been approximately 11,000 Ukrainian civilians killed and approximately 70,000 Ukrainian soldiers killed [1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrain...
29 replies →
Hamas’s Oct 7th attack also had a 2:1 civilian to soldier death ratio.
“The latest death toll from the attack is now 767 civilians, 20 hostages and 376 members of the security forces, giving a total of 1,163. One person remains missing.” https://www.barrons.com/news/new-tally-puts-october-7-attack...
11 replies →
Well, depends how exactly you classify people as "combatant".
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-03-31/ty-article-ma...
This could only be possible if you are assuming all males killed are Hamas militants. In other words, absurd.
[flagged]
10 replies →
This is probably obvious, but just to make sure: This is the opinion of skinkestek, and not an objective truth. As another Norwegian, I do not share this opinion.
To avoid a back and forth here, people should feel free to find a way to analyse the confidence levels that newspapers use when quoting the different sides.
- what entities are quoted using netral or confidence signaling language like "sier" (says), "i følge" (according to) and similar, "data fra" (data from)
- what entities are quoted using language that gives low trust connotations: "påstår" (claims, but in Norwegian signalling low confidence)
Feel free to also compare how the claimed Israeli bombing of a hospital early during Israels response affected the front pages, vs when it became clear that it was a rocket engine from Gaza that had hit a mostly empty parking lot ourside a hospital and left a dent in the asphalt.
Since I argue in good faith I also encourage you elygre to provide similar ways to try to get something measurable to show your perspective.
I pride myself (for the lack of a better term) with being able to change my views based on listening to others and have done so both when it comes to drug policies (I have gone from very strict to liberal), economics (I used to be anti socialism, now I have come to appreciate and defend our current Norwegian system very much), and I used to defend Israel in ways that I don't do anymore.
What about the World Central Kitchen people? Aid workers and terrorists?
No!
And someone needs to be held accountable whatever the reason is.
And again, what would be the reason why a lot of people trying to live a “normal” life feel compelled to take up arms?
Many will call it resistance in an occupied territory in a lot of other contexts.
By this logic when the Nazis killed members of the resistance, of course they were also fighters in addition to whatever day jobs they had.