Comment by jameskilton
2 years ago
Yet ESDF is objectively better because it frees up Q, A, Z, and W to easily be used for other keybinds. The number of people I've seen stretch their pinky down to Left-CTRL for crouch boggles my mind. With ESDF, crouch is A!
Yes, this is a very tiny hill on which to die on, but it's my hill!
> Yet ESDF is objectively better
Subjectively better.
If I were to switch to ESDF, I would have only one key to the right of my index finger in each row, as opposed to two. (I have a split keyboard.) You could argue that I would have two keys to the left of my pinky finger, but I find that reach more difficult.
I would also have a harder time orienting my fingers without looking, because I would no longer have the differently-shaped keys under my pinky to let me know I was in the right place. (The indentation that indicates home position on my F key is subtle, and easy to miss when I'm focused on the action in a game.)
Objectively better on a standard non split keyboard then. Many games assume non split keyboard for default key bindings
No, still subjectively better. There's no such thing as objectively better when it comes to control schemes. It's all personal preference.
What is a "standard" non-split keyboard? What do a game developer's assumptions have to do with objectivity?
Also, you have conveniently ignored my last paragraph.
The better mapping is objectively subjective. ;)
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I have large hands. Left control is the natural resting place of my pinky, while reaching A from an ESDF rest requires I adjust my whole hand to scrunch my fingers closer.
I've used EADF (not s) for years, and will never go back.
I touch my palm on the ctrl key, so WASD is more natural.
ESDF is also more natural to touch-typers as it’s basically the same as the left hand “home position” of ASDF. And it’s easy to locate without looking, since the F key usually has a raised marker on most keyboards.
I touch type, but I've always felt WASD more "natural" or comfortable for gaming. I've tried ESDF but can't get used to it... For me I think it really is that the edge of the keyboard helps anchor and give a solid reference for where the hand is and those keys at the edge will be easily hittable by everyone. Also, a lot of times my pinky awkwardly rests inbetween the shift & z.
On the other hand, the F key has a bump on it on every keyboard I've recently come into contact with, which could provide an anchor.
As an EDSF gamer (blame Tribes) I agree but I've run into issues with (IIRC) E, Shift, and Space on keyboards that aren't n-key rollover but it's been over a decade since I last owned one. So I think that's the reason for WASD.
FWIW, A is dodge for me and V is crouch.
> Yet ESDF is objectively better [...] crouch is A!
I think you've forgotten the hardware limitations (rollover/ghosting) that usually made it objectively worse instead, where "A" often wouldn't behave the same as ctrl or shift when multiple keys are being held down.
Being able to strafe while holding crouch is a handicap.
> objectively better
There actually was a time when computer scientists at Atari studied user interface stuff with game performance in mind. All that ended years before WASD, but it’s worth pointing out that WASD came about as part of a competitive process. It’s not like anyone’s being forced to use something that doesn’t work for them (except on consoles).
> stretch their pinky down to Left-CTRL for crouch boggles my mind. With ESDF, crouch is A!
Because those are the only two conceivable choices…
>computer scientists at Atari studied user interface stuff with game performance in mind
2600 and 5200 controllers say otherwise.
The point was that there is a way to do "objective" study of Human-Computer Interaction, with game controllers as well as everything else, and then there are random opinions offered as "objective" for no reason other than people not caring about what "objective" means.
But you're right about those controllers being somewhat shit. In fairness to the amazing Atari research labs that were used as part of a perhaps poor comparison, they had nothing to do with the design of those controllers and weren't around long enough to really affect much on the hardware side before their iteration of Atari died. For a couple of years Atari had some amazing researchers, but they would have benefitted from some amazing (or merely competent) senior management as well.
> part of a competitive process
Ehhh, sort of. I think people copied it from Thresh (a famous Quake player). It was better than the default, and "good enough" for competition. So a lot of people simply copied it and never thought about it again, especially after games started making it the default.
I don't believe that competitive players are unwilling to experiment with this stuff to get an edge. On the hand, if someone polled today's competitive gamers to see what they're doing with their keybindings, the results were not published in this article. The author might ascribe more importance to the defaults than is really appropriate.
An issue with EDSF that WASD dodged was that some keyboards had groupings that could only register a limited number of key-downs simultaneously. I believe EDSF was in one group. But, WASD spanned two. So, on those keyboards you could get ignored inputs specifically when things were getting frantic.
I've never experienced that myself. Instead, I've been EDSF fo' lyfe because I had so many keybinds in HL1 multiplayer they surrounded those keys on all sides.
Input ghosting. Happens when they don’t use a 1 to 1 switch matrix. Probably some truth to what you’re saying, I could see the column/row inputs being different.
ESDF also has the cute advantage that it has your hand resting in home row position.
Disagree. If I put my pinky on A for ESDF then I have to rotate my wrist enough such that pressing E is uncomfortable. The natural resting place for my pinky with WASD is on shift, not tab. CTRL is trivial to reach. Tab is more awkward.
Funny, haven't seen esdf mention in ages. I used to use ESDF exclusively. I eventually gave it up though just due to needing to remap it in ever damn game. Plus some wouldn't let me remap, which was even more annoying.
It is incredible the number of AAA releases which have an abysmal rebinding experience. Like they gave the job to the intern and nobody attempted to try it once. From tutorials which hard code the controls, special modes (driving, UI) which only respect the original, etc.
Wonder if there's a program that toggles remaps wasd to esdf or whatever template.
Shift is can be another interesting key to hit. Many non-US keyboards have an extra key between shift and z (or whatever letter takes to place of z in a particular region. Not only are you reaching further to hit the shift key, but the size of the target is not much larger than a normal key.
In countries like Canada, life is even more fun. Most keyboards are of the US variety, yet many laptops come with the multi-lingual variant. Better get used to two keyboard layouts if you're using WASD with shift/control.
I've been using ESDF (well, .oeu now that I'm using the Dvorak layout, but details) since I was using Azerty keyboards. A (Q on Azerty) for jump, C (J on Dvorak) for crouch, Z (; on Dvorak) for walk, and I've got enough reach for plenty of other keys.
Got started doing that when I played Bungie's Oni, which required editing an INI file to rebind keys.
You could also just find a way to rebind caps lock, which would accomplish more or less the same thing.
This is exactly what I've done -- Caps Lock is another control. I find I don't use it much for typical keybinds, but very heavily use it in games.
My hill is slightly smaller in that I replace D with C, this way I have my thumb on C and I never have to switch keys.
I instead use D as the use key in all games, X for reload, V for crouch etc.
And here I am using QWES.
I find it much more ergonomic to have the three fingers on the same row.
And L Ctrl is not a stretch at all. Although for some reason I usually bind L Alt to crouch...
Damn, am I the only one that used M1 to go forwards?
So what exactly do you need the QAZW for? With WASD you still have TAB, CAPS, tilde and SHIFT available. Also, crouch is Q, jump is E.
Crouching and jumping are usually performed in combination with movement. How do you press Q or E while also using WASD freely?
For run'n'gun games like Quake, nothing really but for games with more controls like ArmA or Tribes those extra buttons come in handy.
Shield, nade, lean left/right, use item, etc.
Weapon switching is a big part of competitive Quake. Easy-to-reach weapon keybinds give you an advantage.
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I suppose with ESDF you have the two keys Q and W where otherwise only tab would be.
Q and E are lean left, lean right!
Agreed, but everyone I’ve ever discussed this matter with has called it FEDS vs WADS
The Tribes series showed me the based way of ESDF enlightenment.
WASD is for peasants.
First shooter I played at home was Esoteria, with ESDF.
I've got to agree with you on this
And what a hill at that!
Clearly hasn't learned to use the palm for left ctrl!
/s
I do use the palm though, it is weird, lol
me too, just works out well with WASD. It's like an extra finger.