Comment by dogprez
5 months ago
She makes some good points, but my take is that we in the 21st century are more bound to the success of our weakest links. Our world has become so complicated, one small mistake can have dire consequences. So, it's the state's priority to spend its limited resources helping those struggling to tread water. Gifted children will get the stimulus they need at home via independent study or from their family. I know since I gave myself an almost complete college education in computer science before I graduated from high school. Splitting gifted kids apart can warp them socially for life too.
> we in the 21st century are more bound to the success of our weakest links
only because they can vote
> Gifted children will get the stimulus they need at home via independent study or from their family
This is definitely not true for poorer gifted students:
- whose parents may not even know anything about the field that the student is interested in
- whose parents may see higher education as a waste of time or have other anti-intellectual views like a sizeable chunk of the US
- who may have ADHD (pretty likely actually) and need some kind of external structure to pursue something to the student's maximum potential
> Splitting gifted kids apart can warp them socially for life too
Gathering gifted kids together, instead of bunching them with lowest common denominators, can result in lifelong friendships. Out of 5 friends from high school that I'm still close with, 4 are in big tech and 1 is in a prestigious PhD program, we still try to gather a few times a year even though we've been out of high school for 10 years.
> This is definitely not true for poorer gifted students: - whose parents may not even know anything about the field that the student is interested in - whose parents may see higher education as a waste of time or have other anti-intellectual views like a sizeable chunk of the US
Why are you assuming that because the parents are poor they are automatically ignorant or anti-intellectual?
poorer kids will be more affected by family attitudes because they will be less likely to be in a well funded school system with sufficient support for gifted kids
> This is definitely not true for poorer gifted students:
I don't think that's as big of an issue because kids have access to teachers, libraries and the internet.
> Gathering gifted kids together, instead of bunching them with lowest common denominators, can result in lifelong friendships.
Kid's together creates the opportunity for friendships. Focusing too much on academics at a young age will miss key milestones for social development. It's particularly acute for high functioning autistic kids.
>only because they can vote
Domain specificity of "weak link"-hood, as well as the compounding of innocuous, sub-symptomatic "weak links":
Carpenter Tom is a hard-worker, great husband, and community leader. And he voted for an autocrat, against his explicit interests (benefits from ACA, benefits from undocumented immigrant labor, benefits from special-ed resources for his kids) because he dislikes keeping abreast of current events (poor reading speed) and made his decision based on a misunderstanding predicated by, essentially, a game of telephone across his personal network that warped facts about the candidates.
He's a "weak link" on the subject that counts - the matter of the vote - but otherwise an upstanding member of the community. You're going to disenfranchise him?
I sympathize with the rest of your comment. I do think it's a bit naive to think that these programs help even of a fraction of the poor kids they should be reaching. They seem to mostly be a way to section off semi-affluent kids in "lesser" schools (e.g., parents who can't move for work or family reasons).
> You're going to disenfranchise him?
No, I'm just going to wish that he was more educated and informed, and that the school system 40 years ago taught him critical thinking. American school needs to get better at teaching middling students too, too many USAians I talk to are incapable of reasoning about and discussing policy. With all that being said, the way he is the "weak link" is that by voting, he is most capable of negatively affecting the most people.
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> Gifted children will get the stimulus they need at home via independent study or from their family.
Or by disrupting the rest of the class.
> Splitting gifted kids apart can warp them socially for life too.
Single streaming gifted kids can also warp them socially. Gifted kids in a single stream classroom need to learn to play dumb or become a social pariah. My school district had tracked 1-6, and semi-tracked 7-12. It was a real adjustment leaving the core group where learning and knowledge was appreciated and developed, even if most of the kids in the 'honors/advanced' sections were people I knew from the tracked grade school experience. My child had pullout 'branches' in his current school district 2-4, and AFAIK, it seemed pretty useless; my spouse had a similar pullout program growing up and also reports not getting much out of it, other than a target on their back, socially. Not having a core group supportive of learning gave my kid a lot of trouble in grade 7; although 7-8 is generally a hard time for kids; we're having a lot better experience in 8 at a small private school where the kids all want to learn.
OTOH, I have a cousin who absolutely hated her experience in a tracked system, so I get that too.
There's a bunch of different things all clamoring for more resources in education, and prioritizing is hard, but I think a lot of the conversation in the past few years has been about "why do they get this nice thing? they shouldn't have it" as opposed to "why can't we all have this nice thing" or "how do we make sure selection criteria is not discriminatory".
But I'm pragmatic. Gifted kids can often work more self-directed, so let their class sizes float upwards, and have the other classes float downward.
> Or by disrupting the rest of the class.
Kids that are struggling in class can be just as disruptive.
> Gifted kids in a single stream classroom need to learn to play dumb or become a social pariah.
Aka learn to function in society?
Here's my story from the other side. I have one gifted child and one child with dyslexia, but doesn't qualify for special education. My school district has a gifted program that is a whole separate school, but they have a handful of specialists to help kids struggling to read. They are shared across the grades and hard to get assigned. One of them has to actually be paid for by the PTSA since the district won't pay for it. That's messed up.
>Gifted children will get the stimulus they need at home via independent study or from their family.
That's extremely optimistic.
Well-off gifted kids will get the stimulus they need at home. Poor gifted kids are out of luck. And thus, the policy serves to entrench socioeconomic disadvantage in the name of making everybody equal.
I don't believe it. Almost every kid in America has access to the internet, a public library and a teacher. How many don't have access to any of those? That's a different problem.
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What is the purpose of government? Maybe its some sort of collective action/game theory thing, i.e., handle problems that is in no individual's best interest to solve.
But if that's the case, then government should probably be serving the greatest number, instead of a relatively small amount.
You can help the weakest links without tearing down the most gifted.
it is not a teardown we are talking about. But rather giving attention. Give certain students more attention and that takes away equal attention from everyone else.
if you gave attention to two kids, one was smart and quick, and the other was slow and stiff, who would you help more?
You tear them down by not providing the education they deserve. You tear them down by forcing them into classes with dumb kids. You tear them down by forcing them into classes with trouble maker kids.
Nobody is getting more or less attention and nobody is advocating for that.
I would help both kids equally by having two teachers. One who could help the smart kids and one who could help the less intelligent kid. This isn't an either or situation.
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> but my take is that we in the 21st century are more bound to the success of our weakest links.
Bound in what way? Gated by? Morally obligated to?
It's just the truth. Look at the boeing dreamliner failures. Hundreds of smart people doing a bang up job. It just took one a few missteps to jeopardize the whole production and peoples lives.
Chained to our legs, making every step harder. And you're a bigot if you refuse additional chains.