Comment by rosmax_1337

1 year ago

>This is not the world you live in. [A world where people get debanked for political reasons.]

I know quite a few people, and entities affected by it in Europe. Some of them even personally, individual accounts, not just their companies and organizations. I would elaborate, except I suspect that will be counter productive. Please read site guidelines. Let's agree to disagree.

The idea that the debanking of individuals on political basis has only happened in Canada is wrong. Furthermore, this also only happens to, let's say one side of the political dialogue.

58 comments

rosmax_1337

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do_not_redeem  1 year ago

That blog has a lot of choice quotes along the same lines. Another favorite:

https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/money-laundering-and-...

> This [KYC/AML] will affect the typical user of the financial system precisely zero times during their lives.

I've been affected by this nonsense, and so have friends and family. Quite inconvenient when you're trying to buy a house and trying to keep things moving on time. I may not be "typical" but my mother certainly is. I can tell that patio11 is highly invested in the finance industry, not wanting to burn bridges, and I think he is incentivized to try to make people believe that KYC is beneficial and highly effective, but it's just not the case. It reminds me of the people inside Google working on their auto-banning systems who won't admit that it doesn't always work perfectly.

  • otterley  1 year ago

    Per the article:

    "Debanking will also not infrequently swiftly cascade to accounts in the same household, regardless of title (non-specialists can round this to “name on the account”; industry can’t). Banks institutionally consider those accounts in the same household to be highly likely to be under common control, regardless of what paperwork, account holders, or politically influential subcultures believe."

    • do_not_redeem  1 year ago

      My parents live 1000 miles away and we haven't been in the same household for 20 years. Either our troubles were independent and uncorrelated events, or banks are crawling through people's family trees like they're 23andMe. Maybe my cousin who I haven't seen since we were kids did something shady and tainted our whole family tree in the eyes of the banks, who knows anymore.

      5 replies →

  • broken-kebab  1 year ago

    Same here. I think one must be occupying very nice couch in a nice house in a 1-tier country to say that AML/KYC doesn't affect 'typical' users

  • pjc50  1 year ago

    If people have actually read the article, they will have spotted the bits where patio11 himself has been adversely affected by this at least twice!

    > I think he is incentivized to try to make people believe that KYC is beneficial and highly effective

    I don't think the article is arguing that at all. It's describing the "system", not endorsing it (and explicitly complaining about it in several places).

  • graemep  1 year ago

    If nothing else having to do more paperwork is very common.

    British banks tend to not open accounts for people abroad because of the cost of KYC, and they even close accounts if you move abroad. Difficult if you have assets or a pension in the UK but live abroad. As you say, it makes it very hard for people who move around.

    There are definitely political biases in closing bank accounts in the UK, and many cases of accounts being closed because banks did not like someone's politics. Not even fringe political views, associations with the previous government's part has caused problems in some cases, and definitely association with smaller but significant parties.

    People also avoid taking on jobs that might make them "politically exposed persons" because the rules are too broad, and that (although it affects only a few people) does a great deal of damage because it reduces the number of people from outside in organisations, which worsens governance and corruption.

    • Dracophoenix  1 year ago

      > If nothing else having to do more paperwork is very common. British banks tend to not open accounts for people abroad because of the cost of KYC, and they even close accounts if you move abroad.

      How are their so many non-dom retirees if that's the case? They have to have some sort of income.

      3 replies →

Dalewyn  1 year ago

Also happening in Japan. Quite a number of big-name vendors like DMM, DLsite, and others are getting heavy pressure from Visa and Mastercard to censor certain merchandise for no justifiable reason (as in no legal basis) and in some cases have been blacklisted outright.

The Japanese response, and this is after placating the first round of censor demands, has been to reverse-blacklist Visa and Mastercard because Japan realized that giving an inch only means they will then demand a mile, then a league, and so on.

  • diptera911  1 year ago

    I feel like you are omitting the content that visa and mastercard find particularly objectionable that is commonplace in japan but not elsewhere.

    • xethos  1 year ago

      This reads like an American, once again, deciding to enforce American cultural norms on other nations

      I'm not defending or condemning any of the artwork in question, just pointing out that American corporations have been forcing through their own cultural norms for decades, even in countries where that may not always be welcome

      In turn, this makes American corporations the arbiters of what is de facto legal, despite not being the ones elected to write the laws

    • Shank  1 year ago

      > I feel like you are omitting the content that visa and mastercard find particularly objectionable that is commonplace in japan but not elsewhere.

      At this point, I would argue that the reasoning isn't even cohesive or unified. Some sites lose all processors (e.g., Amex bails too) whereas others lose only Visa and MasterCard, and the distinctions aren't made clear to end users.

      Sure, DMM and DLSite end up offering a large variety of pornography, but it's not just that -- Niconico Douga's premium subscription service was also blacklisted, despite the fact that it's basically just YouTube Premium for Japanese livestreamers (i.e., not pornography).

      A lot of people argue that the reason is specific genres of pornography, but the practical reality is that it can be basically any type of content of reason. Stripe considers pornography an industry that's too-hot-to-touch, for example, despite the fact that some processors do work with pornography, and end up charging much higher processor fees for the hassle. A lot of user-generated content, which is wildly uncontrolled, combined with a relatively high risk of refunds, can lead to this type of action without necessarily transgressing a general rule like "this specific variety of pornography is bad".

      2 replies →

    • lmm  1 year ago

      Omitting that tends to result in more productive discussions. Most people are much more principled when discussing in the abstract than when it comes to something that they have been two minutes' hating for their whole lives.

    • Dalewyn  1 year ago

      Your feelings as a non-Japanese have absolutely no bearing on what flies in Japan.

      Whether the content concerned is tentacle hentai, or goth lolis, or genderbent King Arthur and Leonardo Da Vinci, or whatever else, that stuff is legal under Japanese law and Visa/MC are violating Japanese rights ordering Japanese creators and merchants to censor them. Visa/MC are quite literally engaging in foreign interference and subversion of democracy and Japan's very culture.

      12 replies →

  • throwaway2037  1 year ago

    Classic HN bullshit:

        > censor certain merchandise

    Zero evidence provided. Zero examples provided.

Yeul  1 year ago

We live in a society. There were a bunch of pedos in the Netherlands who tried to start a political party to change age of consent. It did not go well for them.

WinstonSmith84  1 year ago

The middle class and below live paycheck to paycheck so that's an issue they don't have. I suppose the author refers to this (ironically or not)

But debanking happens, or has happened, to _almost_ everybody who has some assets and cash, probably from the higher middle class until the ~1% .. as for the super wealthy, this class enjoys offshore private banking, has assets split into dozens of accounts and is mostly unbothered by AML.

  • loeg  1 year ago

    > debanking happens, or has happened, to _almost_ everybody who has some assets and cash

    I don't think this is true. I know many people with assets and as far as I know, none of them has been debanked. Surely I would know someone who has been debanked if almost everybody with assets has been.

  • epolanski  1 year ago

    You need to provide data behind your claim that debanking is so widespread as to use the word almost everybody.

    Never ever heard any person I know being denied banking services, except for some unlucky (were they?) entrepreneur with very shady is-he-laundering-money situations.

    • throwaway2037  1 year ago

      I feel exactly the same. I tire of people on HN talking about their accounts being closed but providing 10% of the relevant information to their case. I have said it before and I will say it again: If your accounts are wrongfully closed, immediately: (1) Visit your your bank in protest and meet with the branch manager and (2) send physical letter of complaint to (a) local branch (b) head office (c) national bank regulator and make it clear you have CC'd all. I bet 99% of legit cases will be reinstated within 30 days.

    • sroussey  1 year ago

      Small VCs have this de-banking problem. Their patterns for cash and not conducive to want banks want and large banks will regularly close them down.

  • astrange  1 year ago

    > The middle class and below live paycheck to paycheck so that's an issue they don't have.

    You mean they answer surveys saying they do, according to surveys published in press releases from payday lenders.

    They also answer surveys from the Fed saying they have median $8k in bank accounts and that they can pay 3 months of expenses in cash.

    These two things are contradictory.

  • _bkyr  1 year ago

    > But debanking happens, or has happened, to _almost_ everybody who has some assets and cash, probably from the higher middle class until the ~1%

    Can you back up this claim? The wealthier you are the less chance you're going to be debanked. Marc Andressen and all the crypto bros will never have an issue with debanking. Banks are rolling out the red carpet for him and everyone else with his net worth.

    What they (1%) want is to own the bank and own (and create) the currency without ever having to be an actual bank. They invest in crypto to make a massive profit, and it's foolish to play along with these things as some sort of benefit to society. Together these guys could end world hunger and still have more money than they would ever need, but no, they've decided VBucks are a pressing issue.

elric  1 year ago

I too know of such people in Europe. Including people in perfectly legal industries, and refugees from war torm countries.

Banks are a necessary evil, but evil all the same.