Comment by ClumsyPilot
20 days ago
> That just makes those people unemployable, and will need food stamps even more. Nobody is going to hire people who cost more than the value they produce.
Good, a job that cannot support biological needs should not exist. It’s not a viable business.
Why should I pay a stealth subsidy to whatever business it is.
> Do you want Big Tech to be American companies, or foreign companies?
This excuse was used to start wars, trample civil rights and employment rights. It basically means we must become like China to beat China. What would be the point?
> Good, a job that cannot support biological needs should not exist.
There was a time in the not so distant past, that close to 100% of those "Minimum Wage" jobs were held by teenagers and youths with close to zero market value as employees, who needed their first few jobs to develop the skills, knowledge, resume and references so they could get an actual job.
Places like McDonalds and Summer Resorts and Amusement parks - were great places for youth to learn these skills. The real distortion is when you started having adults working in McDonalds. It was never a job to support a family - it was a minimum-wage job for kids to get started.
This is just historically inaccurate (and a regrettably common claim among older conservative-ish folk.
Those "minimum wage" jobs that you had a teenager in the 1950-1986 time period? They paid more than minimum wage does now, on an inflation adjusted basis. That $2/hr job in 1962 would be paying $21/hr if it had kept up with CPI.
That's the whole reason why adults started working in them.
Over time, federal minimum wage did not keep up even with national inflation rates, let alone regional cost of living changes. The result is that these employers, who were once forced to pay even their lowest level employees a living wage, can avoid paying even that.
>and a regrettably common claim among older conservative-ish folk.
This is an excellent way to tell everyone you’re comment is just political garbage and can readily be dismissed. It completely drowns any possible signal out with a huge red flag.
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I apologize - the point I was trying to make and failed, was that there were no (able bodied) grown adults working those jobs like Mcdonalds 30 years ago. These are entry-level jobs that require no prior experience and no job skills, and as such were ideal for people just entering the job market. The exchange was that teenagers would work these jobs, and that, for a modest sum, they would primarily get work experience and some pocket money.
What's gone awry in the last 40 or so years is that the labor market hasn't created enough new employment in what I could call "career" or "occupation" work - for adults, and as a result, they've started working in jobs that were never really meant for them, certainly not for doing things like paying rent, utilities, etc... and as a result - the working poor as a class has grown.
And $21/hour is not near enough to survive on in my region - (and is also a bit less than what most people in my area make at McDonalds (bay area)) - So you are in a round-about way proving my point.
Let me be as clear as I can be - "Increasing the minimum wage to be a living salary of $40-$50/hour would eliminate many opportunities for people entering the workforce who can't justify that kind of investment currently".
Leave it at the market-clearing level of $20-$25/hour, and ideally return to having teenagers/young adults working those jobs while grown-adults move onto other opportunities that our economy should be creating.
Jobs that that cannot support biological needs should exist as they are great for developing job-skills and experience in youth.
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all the sources I see say minimum wage should be around 12 USD where did you source the 21USD number?
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> The real distortion is when you started having adults working in McDonalds. It was never a job to support a family - it was a minimum-wage job for kids
Nonsense: Fast-food chains never had a business model of closing during school hours! They remain open, and that shows each role has always required some adult employees with adult budgetary needs.
One can argue minimum-wage jobs are only for kids in school, or one can argue that a regular-businesses-hours company can have min-wage positions, but both together is incoherent.
Indeed, in what universe were all these store front businesses open only from 4pm-9pm when high schoolers were available.
> Good
It's not better to have people have no jobs and require 100% assistance.
> subsidy
Regardless of how you define terms, you'll being paying much more to help them when they are jobless.
> become like China
China has a largely state run economy, with the resulting problems.
> It's not better to have people have no jobs and require 100% assistance
It is actually. Former employees are free to learn new skills or do charity instead of being busy surviving a game they can’t win.
You are also subsidising an economically wasteful activity that cannot cover its own true costs - if fast food joint can’t pay a wage, it does not cover the negative externalities from extra traffic on the road, carbon emissions and people getting fat.
Business will be forced to innovate and invest in automation
>>Good, a job that cannot support biological needs should not exist. It’s not a viable business.
>>Why should I pay a stealth subsidy to whatever business it is.
I think a lot of the argument around minimum wage is a disagreement (or misunderstanding?) about minimum wage workers.
Let's say you have a $10/hr minimum wage, and some company BigCo hires people and pays them $10/hr. Now, the disagreement: is BigCo actually getting $10/hr of value out of those workers? Or is it $20/hr, or $50/hr, or $5/hr, or $2/hr? Because I think that's a critical question both in terms of "should we subsidize those workers/BigCo" and "should we raise the minimum wage".
Some people do not currently, and may never, have skills that are worth $25/hr in terms of value produced in our economy. I think we need to make sure those people still have an acceptable standard of living, but I don't think setting the minimum wage to $25/hr is likely to do that.
> Now, the disagreement: is BigCo actually getting $10/hr of value out of those workers? Or is it $20/hr, or $50/hr, or $5/hr, or $2/hr?
I think this is the wrong question and it’s not our job to solve that.
Example - suppose I have a diamond mine, I can hire anyone with zero skill - homeless, drug addicts, criminals - pay them $5 an hour and they will dig up $1,000 of diamonds a day. What is the answer your own question - how much value is the business getting?
What we should consider instead is this - there is a certain cost for civilisation to continue. Workers must be born, educated, and then create the new generation. If they are not paid enough to continue the cycle, we will not let the country collapse, will we?
I as a taxpayer will end up picking up the tab in one way or another - whether it’s through food stamps, or in immigration or something else.
These jobs could be a total net loss once you account for carbon emissions and other externalities.
I would rather get these people to do charity work or plant trees instead.
>Good, a job that cannot support biological needs should not exist. It’s not a viable business.
And "biological needs" are an ever-increasing target, just beyond minimum wage. When minimum wage increases so does the target. Why? Because it's not about biological needs. It's about relative wealth dressed up as "basic needs".
I do think the US should have a minimum wage increase, but the discussion around it seems so disingenuous.