Comment by MontagFTB
2 years ago
I don’t understand the lack of interest by journalists. What more did Williams need to do the first time he reached out to garner interest? Does ProPublica overestimate the seriousness of the militia movement? I’d think based on J6 the journalists ignoring Williams’ communications should have paid attention.
Besides the things other comments mentioned: There is a longstanding sentiment that "It can't happen here".
The wider public in America more or less blocks out the risks involved. "They're not actually going to blow up the power grid."
Hell, just look at the tech industry. Endless whining about not needing to be regulated, and what have they done? Built an enormous surveilance machine, lead by executives who preemptively kowtow to any authoritarian leader. Europe's attempt to regulate this is still angrily opposed by heaps, even on this very site.
Yup
Normalcy bias — it's an absolute killer. The same cognitive failure that has people in a fire thinking it's "just part of the show", or "just something in the kitchen", until it is too late, and panic overtakes everyone. I've never seen a story of a fire where someone in the situation said "I wasn't sure what was going on, but it didn't seem good so I left early, I'm alive because I did!".
Normalcy bias can kill us all if we aren't careful.
Thanks for writing this: things are quite askew right now for various reasons, and it was unexpectedly affirming to hear someone say it loud.
Until now I would have said this is an extreme minority view, even though it's quite obvious and aligns with the core values I've seen on this site over the last 15 years, and thus presumed were tech in general's view.
Maybe I just need to get off X, the Everything App™, 90% of my news consumption and commentary is through there.
I dropped of Twitter, and Facebook in 2014 (or around that time); and I have not missed a single important event since then.
People think they need Facebook, X, whatever to stay up to date. Not so. I have a few online newspapers/sites I scan a few times a week, and that's it.
IMHO (and it's really just MO), Twitter, Facebook and alike are a 100% useless waste of time. (Maybe Facebook had some use in the beginning for staying in contact with more "friends" than I could have by other means.)
I feel better for it. And as I said, I will guarantee you that won't miss anything important going on.
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Yes, you should definitely leave X. It is a cesspool of rage bait.
Come to Bluesky. It’s not perfect, but neither was twitter 10 year ago. Bluesky feels a bit like that.
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It’s sort of alluded to but I suspect journalists get a whole lot of false tips from various mentally unhealthy folk, which perhaps appear much like Williams’ in this story.
Yeah, being contacted by someone who’s on a bespoke undercover mission in right-wing militias is huge. Being contacted by someone who’s says they are is another matter.
Exactly. That’s precisely the angle someone would use if they were trying to hoax or embarrass your publication.
We don't know how the initial attempts at contact were presented. I can see it being extremely difficult to get someones attention. If how seemingly technical people ask for assistance on net forums is any indication, unless has someone has the skill of a reporter in presenting information, a string of signal messages with, "contact me, I have important information on XYZ" isn't going to cut it.
Because it's just not interesting. He didn't find out anything exciting and basically nothing crazy happened. Its incredibly easy to join these organizations. Just show up. They aren't doing much of anything.
There's no shortage of street gangs, kill rappers, cartels,ethnic crime families, ransomware groups, terrorist etc that are actively killing people or committing wide scale crimes. Go join them and you could have a compelling story. Join the Nuwabian Moors and get to work on infiltrating the SuperMax.
Even corny ass biker gangs with their name on their "cut" occasionally get in shoot outs and have more interesting things going on then what is basically a middle aged version of the boy scouts.
I dont think journalists really find J6 to be important at all. Even left leaning journalists pay lip service to it but shrugs, buncha white dudes blowing off steam I think is how "everyone" sees this. As evidence, look at the election we just had.
It reminds me of how the World Trade Center was bombed in 1993. Oh, that was scary, well, whatever, the dudes in jail, shrugs. Because it failed to bring the building down. For me, I was like, holy crap people are trying to blow up the WTC arent they going to....keep trying? but that's just not how people think. Super scary thing that failed == ho hum.
> As evidence, look at the election we just had.
The amazing thing is how the right was able to essentially rewrite the history of Jan 6 over the last 4 years. Right after the incident even many Republican politicians in DC were calling for Trump's resignation and impeachment (or at least some resolution that would not allow him to run again). There was a huge amount of alarm in the immediate aftermath. But then the narrative about the events of that day slowly started to turn into "it was just a peaceful protest where a few bad apples got a bit out of hand" (that came right after the "it was antifa" stage which didn't last too long when it was clear that these folks were Trump supporters). Trump certainly minimized Jan 6 (to his benefit) and the rest of the GOP began to go along just as they've gone along with the idea that the 2020 election was "stolen" from Trump (and if they actually believe it was stolen then they can come to the conclusion that Jan 6 was justified as some of them do).
> the right was able to essentially rewrite the history of Jan 6 over the last 4 years.
so when the left literally changed wikipedia entries, what was that? not rewriting history?
to put it bluntly, it’s hard to have sympathy for your case when the left does the same. when will the left stop complaining that the right is doing things they are also doing?
when will the rest of you figure out that parties are the problem?
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You’re mistaking genuine concern with political hay making.
Of course the Democrats call it an insurrection - that’s what their base wants to hear and benefits them at the polls.
But look at what they do in totality - after calling him Hitler the Democratic leadership was wishing Trump a speedy recovery after the assignation attempt.
You don’t wish Hitler a “speedy recovery”.
It’s mostly political theatre. J6 was a riot, but the republic was not able to topple.
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Or, pertinent to the subject at hand, how the Oklahoma City bombing was tied to the right wing militia movement and they’re still mostly seen as, well, a bunch of white dudes blowing off steam like you said. In that case, it seems like people saw that they got the perpetrators and that’s that, not considering what sort of circumstances produced them and where it might go in the future.
And WTC and OKC were (at least somewhat) successful attacks! J6 caused damage but failed. We’re really bad at taking failed attempts seriously.
A big factor in the OKC, J6, and militia movement and White nationalist violence more generally is that the law enforcement community in the US has very significant overlap with the militia and White nationalist movements, impacting how seriously they are treated by law enforcement, and how seriously they are treated by journalists who rely on experts from within the law enforcement community (both current officers and private experts that are the same people relied on as outside experts by law enforcement and are usually ex-law enforcement) for their understanding of the issues.
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After OKC, the FBI turned the eye of sauron upon the militias. Then 9/11 happened, and white guys in the woods were suddenly less scary than non-white guy and the eye of sauron was no longer looking at the white guys in the woods.
> We’re really bad at taking failed attempts seriously.
To that point, Osama bin Laden had multiple attempts attacking the WTC. They realized that it was going to take a lot more than a car bomb to take down those buildings and made improved plans from a car bomb. Which is just some of the data pointed to by those that are unbelieving that a truck bomb was the sole cause of OKC.
They were also well planned and intentional. J6 seemed much more like spur-of-the-moment mob action, at least from my armchair.
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didn't timothy mcveigh also say that it was specifically a retaliation for waco?
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I don't think these right wing militias are that much of a threat. They're mostly LARPers and have enough attachment to their groups to not do the radical violence. Historically the right wingers that have actually committed violence are the ones that can't even find belonging in the right wing militias.
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> the journalists ignoring Williams’ communications
It's because just accepting a prepackaged story like this from a single source would completely fail to meet the standards of journalism.
Journalism has standards?
Because his story barely passes the sniff test.
He just up and joined a bunch of radical militias that he strongly disagrees with? I mean... maybe. But you'd of course be very suspicious of everything he says and his motives for coming forward.
The article's author was suspicious and skeptical too. That's why he read through the chat logs and audio recordings, and also interviewed former friends and militia members to corroborate the story. The article also explicitly calls out which of Williams' claims were uncorroborated or contradicted.
Genuinely asking: what other evidence are you looking for?
Logging my doubt that the target of your comment actually read the entirety of the article.
I think he actually agreed with it. Then had a change of heart or they pissed him off. I would go with the latter. Myself. Plus really have to be careful doing solo stuff like this. Alot of actual bad guys would say. See I was telling a journalist etc. I am super under cover!
He might have been reaching out to journalists working for outlets that run cover for this militia movement. Based on J6 and subsequent developments in the justice system, there are media outlets cooperating with those authorities that downplay/join the militia movement.
This is an important side-light on the concept that media sources are 'grifting' and only interested in what will make them money. It's surprisingly common for media sources to turn away from stories that could be sensational and give them money, but at the expense of a cause (such as these paramilitaries) which someone at the media source supports.
In that case, the person at the media source making decisions will understand that the story is sensational and attention-getting, but will quash it because to run the story would be hurting the paramilitaries…
> Does ProPublica overestimate the seriousness of the militia movement?
Unclear. Depends on how supportive of it Trump is. He might legitimize it by pardoning the Jan. 6 attackers. Many of them thought they were acting on Trump's orders, after all. There was one platoon-sized Proud Boys unit on Jan. 6th that showed military organization and discipline. The rest were just a mob.
Having a private army of goons can be useful. That's what the SA was in the Nazi era. The SA was a big organization, 20x the size of the German army at peak. Eventually, it was put down once Hitler was firmly in power. See "Night of the Long Knives".[1] Other countries have been through this. Sometimes the goons ended up in charge, or at least as a large faction to be kept happy.
This is often seen after internal unrest that yields a large, restless, armed group. Germany got there by losing WWI, but not being crushed. Haiti is a classic example. Afghanistan seems to have gone down this road - all those former "fighters" have to be fed and kept busy.
The closest the US came was the "Bonus Army" camped out on the Mall after WWI, demanding a bonus for veterans.[2] The Bonus Army had 17,000 veteran soldiers, and some political and police support. Eventually they were forcibly dispersed.
US militias don't match any of those classic situations. They're mostly wannabees. If you encounter militia types, ask them if all their members use the same ammo. If not, they're a rabble, not an army.
Do we get to see the actual documents the original author talks about?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army
> US militias don't match any of those classic situations. They're mostly wannabees. If you encounter militia types, ask them if all their members use the same ammo. If not, they're a rabble, not an army.
Sure, but there's plenty of opportunity for asymmetric warfare. Several power stations have been attacked in various parts of the US over the last few years. They could be probing the power system for vulnerabilities (and there are plenty of those). Also, look at how lowish-cost drones are coming to dominate the Ukraine war.
Have you read the Congressional report on Jan 6th?
Yes, and I watched the summary video.
The job of corporate media is to preserve the establishment, to perpetuate the status quo.
Sometimes, some token investigative journalism is allowed. (So long as those revelations do not challenge the status quo, natch.) Maintaining the charade of being the Forth Estate. Less so over time, as the "infotainment" biz model pioneered by USA Today transformed the industry. What kids today would call "enshitification."
FWIW, Propublica is a member of the so-called Fifth Estate, explaining why they can do what actual journalism.
Reading the article he found nothing right?
He found and could verify militia connections between various law enforcement, local and state government officials.
I've been involved with a local militia for several years, and they absolutely do have strong connections with law enforcement (and, to a lesser extent, military) - some cops are members outright, others are not formally affiliated but provide support, training etc.
The cops I've seen in those meetings talking about how the communities they are policing are "subhuman animals" that "just need a bullet" are still in Seattle PD, as well.
They also had connections with some state legislature members, such as Matt Shea.
Ok, but so what though? Are they actively committing crimes or doing something crazy with regard to the militia? I mean we have tons of evidence of cops doing crazy shit in uniform and on the record and nothing happens.
The report identified (but didn't directly name) 1 sheriff. Assuming it’s the current sheriff, a quick google of his background + the fact that he "facilitated" the militia members FBI interview gives a pretty strong hint why mainstream media would not pick up this story.
If he does follow up with releasing incriminating files then that's not nothing. We'll see. I have hopes that he wasn't lying, I like nothing more than seeing traitors and treasonous cowards exposed to the light. I try to always stay centered and skeptical, but it would be a great reveal to expose these militia cowards skulking around the country.
Because as low as most journalist’s standard are, Williams is below that low standard. Though good enough for Pro Publica. He is an erratic, ex-con, who seems to be mentally unstable. Did you believe the puppy story?
If the journalist really verified the audio recordings I believe it. Faking so many hours of audio from multiple people is still difficult. I mean, you could do it with AI voices, but I doubt that's the case
Pro Publica is probably the most outstanding investigative journalist collective in the USA currently, unafraid to step on MAGA and militia toes despite their constant threats against journalistic freedom.
I see people proclaim the quality of Propublica journalism and thus actually read through a number of their major exposes.
I wasn’t impressed. They do the same thing the major news outlets do - craft a narrative then selectively use findings to support it.
Their expose on tax records is a good example - they calculated billionaires tax rates based not on income (as everyone thinks of) but rather total wealth to arrive at shockingly small numbers (intentionally).
Maybe they do a better job of in depth articles but the overall quality isn’t that impressive.