Comment by HDThoreaun
3 days ago
There is no eye for an eye argument. The Gaza war is not about revenge, it’s about security. Israel didn’t poke out the Palestinians “eyes” because the Palestinians poked their eye first. They did it because they wanted the stop the Palestinians from poking their eye out before it happens again.
As far as justifying killing and abuse, the world is a complicated place. Personally I think killing is justified in self defense but you may not agree. Israel is certainly a bad actor but Hamas is far worse and unfortunately you do have to choose sides here.
What I think is clear is that Israel is not obligated to go easy on Hamas just because Hamas is economically and militarily weak. Being oppressed doesn’t automatically make you right.
> it's about security
Dig up WW2 German propaganda. It is the same hysteria around "security" aka "If we Aryans don't genocide, all the bad non-Aryans will genocide us".
> What I think is clear is that Israel is not obligated to go easy on Hamas just because Hamas is economically and militarily weak.
Not what the International Law Israel is signatory to, says. Besides, you'd do well to recall that NATO imposed a no-fly zone over Libya so that Gaddafi wouldn't bomb the living daylights out of the rebels who didn't have an Airforce to counteract. And we all know, NATO did no such thing for Palestinians.
> Personally I think killing is justified in self defense
Whatever the current campaign is, it has wretched far beyond "self-defense": https://www.regthink.org/the-day-of-today/
> Being oppressed doesn’t automatically make you right
That it may not, but the Oppressor is by definition in the wrong.
The Israeli security narrative is not hysteria. It is a fact that Palestinian militants have committed terrorism against Israelis and they plan to continue to do so at every given opportunity. The same can not be said for the Jews in Germany(nor the Jews in Israel either, they have by and large not committed to a terrorism campaign like Hamas has). A bit confusing to me that you can’t see the obvious difference between lies and fact.
Unfortunately the Palestinians have left the Israelis with the options of “oppress the Palestinians” or “be the victim of terrorist attacks”. I don’t think they’re wrong for choosing to be safe.
> The Israeli security narrative is not hysteria
"Settlements is security" is in fact a restraint on Palestinian part, while settlers/govt/IDF continue to ramp up the ante.
https://www.regthink.org/en/fanon-west-bank/
> Jews in Israel either, they have by and large not committed to a terrorism campaign
Now that they rule the land, they don't. There's no need for "terrorism" as "militarism" has long replaced it. Back in the day, Irgun/Lehi, by all measures, were every bit Fascist terrorists themselves: https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/terror-o...
> nor the Jews in Israel either, they have by and large not committed to a terrorism campaign like Hamas has
Israelis have killed at least an order of magnitude more Palestinian civilians than Palestinians ever killed Israelis, even before the 7th October war, even counting the 7th October war crimes by Hamas.
The fact that Palestinians do this with bomb cars while the Israelis do it in uniform and with sniper rifles or planes doesn't change anything about who the real threat to whose security is.
4 replies →
> The Gaza war is not about revenge, it’s about security.
Neither. It's about land, resources, and trade routes. The justifications are about revenge, security, religion, etc, but that's not what's keeping this all going.
> As far as justifying killing and abuse, the world is a complicated place.
There's nothing complicated about illegal occupation, apartheid, systemic rape and torture, or genocide. There really isn't.
> I think killing is justified in self defense
Sure, and the UN agrees. Try comparing casualty rates some time.
> Israel is certainly a bad actor but Hamas is far worse
By what possible metric? Certainly not as measured by civilian casualties. Not confirmed rapes or torture. Not hostages taken. Not in tons of bombs dropped on civilians, not on targeting of journalists and UN workers, not in terms of hospitals bombed, or schools, or mosques, or churches, or ancient landmarks. Not in terms of 'who started it'. Not in terms of buying media and politicians favor, or spreading lies designed to justify atrocities.
> What I think is clear is that Israel is not obligated to go easy on Hamas
They are obligated to follow international law. And we (the Western countries arming and enabling them) are obligated to punish their failure to do so.
[flagged]
> Gaza is worthless land, Israel does not want it.
You don't know about the Ben-Gvir canal? About Gaza's offshore oil? Maybe you could do a bare minimum of research before making wholly incorrect pronouncements, in your vain attempt to deflect from genocide.
> > by what possible metric?
> Their intentions?
This is where you get laughed out of the room.
> All the metrics you used are in Israel’s favor
They're really not.
> Israel doesn’t send their citizens to die in Zerg waves like Hamas does.
Not a thing.
> You are falling for Hamas’ strategy of killing their own people to make Israel look bad
Hamas doesn't kill their own people to make Israel bad. Israel does the killing, and the making themselves look bad. You might be thinking of the Hannibal doctrine? Again though, that's Israel.
> If Hamas had any amount of military of economic power they would kill every Israeli they could find
Netanyahu has long said that propping up Hamas is essential, so that a Palestinian state can be prevented.
And, what percentage of Hamas fighters are orphans, due to decades of Israeli brutality?
> The same is just not true for Israel.
That's counter to what hundreds of statements from Israeli political and military leaders would attest [0], as well as hundreds of pages of ICJ documents.
> Frankly I don’t care who started it
How convenient for you.
> litigating that will never lead to a solution.
Your belief in the ineffectiveness of 'litigation' is no excuse to ignore international law. You understand that, right?
> I agree the Palestinians are oppressed and have been treated horribly by Israel. But it’s mostly their own fault.
:o
Some day, I hope you can hear yourself.
> They keep starting wars they can’t win and then crying that they lose.
Wow it's almost as if they want to defend their land, even when up against a military force backed by the world's most militaristic superpower.
Also, remember when you said "Frankly I don't care who started it" earlier in your comment? But now it excuses brutal oppression? If only you were capable of recognizing blatant logical inconsistency.
> Being oppressed doesn’t make you right.
It sure makes the oppressor wrong.
0 - https://law4palestine.org/new-interactive-intent-the-road-to...
1 reply →