Comment by rafaelmn
7 days ago
This is why I don't get why my EU people are attacking Trump - he singlehandedly gave Europe political capital to rebuild itself as an independent player on the international stage. He created an environment where tighter EU integration might take precedence over petty interest squabbles. For example in what other scenario would Germany making massive investments in military be politically acceptable ? Even talking about military on EU level ?
Framing this as purely a win for China and Russia is very partisan, this has potential for all non-US countries to get away from under US thumb long term and at least for that we should be grateful to mr. Trump, from his foreign policy it seems like he is not interested in those games as he views them a net loss for US.
And the Greenland situation is showing us exactly what happens when you position yourself as leech on US military/NATO.
Because they would prefer functional pro democratic world rather then constant struggle for domination with fascists from Russia and USA at the same time. EU people don't want to become poorer or suffer, not even to "own the USA".
Europeans you talk about see Russia as a threat. They are not fascists themselves, so Germany having to arm itself more because Russia just got new ally is not a good news.
> EU people don't want to become poorer or suffer
So when you get other people paying your defense bill, don't be surprised when your territory gets annexed and you get left out of the conversation on the Ukraine issue ?
Do you think that’s the motivation, or the new relationship with Russia? Why are new tariffs not applicable to Russia, Belarus and North Korea?
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Well, EU did paid and supported Ukraine. EU are not the ones who allied themselves with Russia and tried to bully Ukraine into giving them minerals for nothing in return. America is the only country that took others in NATO into war under article 5. Ukraine was also left out of that conversation, this was just Trump being openly pro-Russia.
None of that has anything to do with tariffs.
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I don't think anyone has a problem with europe being a more independent player, it becoming a necessity is what people are upset about. I'd rather have germany make massive investments in infrastructure and health reform than its military.
This line of thinking is exactly what got us into this situation. If you want to outsource your defense how can you be surprised when you get ignored in the Ukraine discussions and when the US feels free to just annex parts of your territory. What's your recourse ?
The 'outsourcing' has always been for the benefit of US defence corporations.
There were a number of occasions in the 50s to 70s when the US stepped in directly to neuter world-leading aerospace projects in the UK, forcing the UK to buy from the US instead.
Virtually all of the cost of the UK's Trident deterrent goes to the US.
And it would be unwise to write off the EU, especially now there's a mass exodus of researchers from the US.
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> If you want to outsource your defense
It's not only that
Outsource defense to USA
Outsource production to China
Make yourself critically dependent on raw materials from Russia.
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The same arguments can be made for free trade, and i think most would agree that the world is better off with international trade than without.
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> This line of thinking is exactly what got us into this situation.
This is exactly right and it is insane that people don't see this. The dysfunction that Pax Americana has inflicted upon Europe must go away. A continent that cannot defend itself is not a sovereign continent.
>This is why I don't get why my EU people are attacking Trump - he singlehandedly gave Europe political capital to rebuild itself as an independent player on the international stage.
What a completely baffling statement. It's like saying the left arm should be grateful that the right arm cut itself off of the body because now the left arm has to strengthen itself. Sabotaging the alliance system that has prevailed since World War II leaving both Europe and the United States more dangerously exposed and compromising the safety of our shared democratic values that were once the bedrock of our alliance.
It's so obviously catastrophic that I can't fathom how someone would try to portray this as a win other than out of an appetite for a JV debate team sophistry. Europe is banding together not out of positive diplomatic achievements, but in the same sense that they would band together if a meteor is headed toward Earth and you're asking us to thank the meteor.
Having a lapdog status since WW2 is an alliance ?
EU and US are not two hands of one body.
Because it's a bit like someone telling you that they're going to burn your house down so you can claim on the insurance and you'll be better off.
It might be technically true in some circumstances, but I still don't want some jackass burning my house down thanks, I like my house. That's why I live there.
Some say many EU politicians are compromised by Russia and China...
I know squabbling is the norm for European countries but I feel there are some recent big own goals. Crazy how we can't get our crap together in such times. (Crazy opinion: UK needs to be in the EU again to be the grown up in the trio of UK, France and Germany)
The UK will need a lot of time to be seen again as a grown-up, after electing a string of buffoons and cutting off its nose to spite its face. Even though Starmer looks more stable, a large part of that look is due to his opposition being in complete chaos and functionally useless.
> I feel there are some recent big own goals
I'm not sure I know what you mean. Do you mind elaborating?
Because the EU does NOT want Germany to arm, remember what happened the last couple of times ?
Both the French and the Poles are urging Germany to rearm. As well as the EU, actually, through both the commission and the parliament. The whole "European countries are afraid of Germany invading" argument is not really a thing.
For context: the French and the German have been alternatively at war and allies since the times of Clovis and Charlemagne, a millenium before Bismark made modern Germany a thing (in occupied Versailles, in what was perfectly calibrated to be a complete French humiliation). And the Poles were on the wrong side of brutal occupation and a genocide during WWII. So both countries would have good reasons to be very skeptical of a powerful Germany.
> the EU does NOT want Germany to arm
The EU is not worried about Germany re-arming, as the world has changed dramatically since WW2 and we have much stronger bonds in Europe than we did when Nazi Germany was around.
I'm not a history buff, are you alluding to anything?
Last century there was the big two, World War One and World War Two. If you go back further it’s more complicated, but the short answer is that Germanic states got into wars with their neighbours a lot. The Wikipedia article has categories.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Germa...
https://historyguy.com/How_Many_Wars_Were_Fought_Between_Fra...
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This is so stupid.
The US rearmed Germany immediately after WW2 to be a buffer against an invading USSR.
We literally put Nazis back into command as long as they were willing to fight the Russians again.
Nobody in NATO was ever afraid of a militarized Germany, except maybe Germans.