Comment by pjc50
12 days ago
> Couldn't Apple create a solution where all your communication is end to end encrypted with a key that they just have a copy of? No backdoors necessary.
But that is a backdoor!
Especially, it's a backdoor that's inside a foreign country and subject to their intelligence services! It might be valid for a hypothetical autochthonous UKphone, but having a system where the US can secretly crack all UK comms is .. not ideal.
Given the tendency of UK ministers to use Whatsapp for private government communications, should we allow the US to have a backdoor into all of that via Meta? (in practice, they tend to leak to newspapers themselves, but it's the principle)
It really is.
> then Microsoft can provide them with a key to unlock your device.
This is a quote from parent. That renders the key and encryption itself pretty useless if it has been given to someone other than you.
Well, I disagree that it's useless - my front door still keeps my home secure even though my sister has a copy of the key.
I want my devices to be secure from thieves who might steal them, and I want my communications to be secure from someone intercepting internet traffic at various locations I might visit - that is still achieved in that scenario, even if MS/Apple hold the copy of the key. That doesn't make the encryption useless - just ineffective if your attack vector is defending yourself against state-level actors.
>my front door still keeps my home secure even though my sister has a copy of the key.
Someone has to physically come to your house to access your front door. Computers and other computer equipment is accessible by anyone anywhere. A Russian hacker outfit can attempt to access your phone from Vladivostok in a way they can't with your front door.
Sticking with front door analogy, what if there were a master key that could open up all door locks that the police held. What if that key was leaked and now you knew that multiple gangs and criminals had the key and were breaking into houses. Would you feel secure with your front door then? Data breaches happen and a company with the keys to everyone's computer front door is a huge target. I don't trust my bitlocker key to Microsoft. There is no such thing as a magical backdoor that only good guys can use but is secure against everyone else. A backdoor is a vulnerability that puts everyone using it at risk.
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Yeah, your sister. Now go ahead and give it to a stranger.
Once your key is in the hand of a third party, you lost control of that data, and you have to trust them that they will not give it out to someone else (they will), and you have to trust them to keep it safe, and you have to trust them to [...].
My private key is mine, and mine only, or supposed to be.
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No, it makes the encryption useless. Because whatever technical method the government has to break encryption will leak. Once those 4096 bits or whatever leak, nobody has encryption at all.
It’s like high schools that mandate use of a particular model of lock for students’ lockers because there’s a master key staff can use to open lockers. Do you know how many students have copies of that master key? Essentially anyone who wants one.
The myth here is that a magic key that invalidates encryption can ever be controlled. It cannot.
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I'd like my communications to be secure from the British Government, in case they decide they don't like the protest I decided to join.
We can see in the USA how quickly things can change. Laws must account for a possible Reform government, for example.
>>But that is a backdoor!
...is it? That's a weird definition if I've ever heard one - backdoor to me is a normally hidden functionality that can be triggered if you know the secret, so for example adding a secret universal key that unlocks every drive - that would be a backdoor. And that's a dangerous one, because if it leaks out then all criminals of the world can now decrypt your drives.
With the way MS does it, Bitlocker could be the most secure encryption on the planet, unbreakable by any quantum computer, and yet if they have a copy of the key then the law enforcement can obtain it if needed - that's not a backdoor, not any more than giving your parents copy of your house key is an exploit on your home security.
>>but having a system where the US can secretly crack all UK comms is .. not ideal.
No, of course not, I agree with you there.
>>Given the tendency of UK ministers to use Whatsapp for private government communications, should we allow the US to have a backdoor into all of that via Meta?
Well, they shouldn't be using WhatsApp in the first place, given that they don't control the underlying technology. A backdoor might already exist and they wouldn't even know about it.
>With the way MS does it, Bitlocker could be the most secure encryption on the planet, unbreakable by any quantum computer, and yet if they have a copy of the key then the law enforcement can obtain it if needed - that's not a backdoor, not any more than giving your parents copy of your house key is an exploit on your home security.
It is more like the local lock company keeps the name, address, and the key bittings for every home in town. What happens when they are robbed and now your address and how to make a key for your lock are in the hands of some criminals in your area?
>>What happens when they are robbed and now your address and how to make a key for your lock are in the hands of some criminals in your area?
I'd hope that Microsoft's key storage is harder to break into than a random local lock company. And there is no need for theoreticals - all my locks are key coded and the manufacturer can make more keys for them if I ask them. They also have my address since they know where they shipped the locks. And yet, I'm not worried about this - I suspect a wannabe robber will just break my windows with a brick not infiltrate the manufacturer's production facility to make a clone of my key.
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Giving your parents a house key _is_ an exploit on your home security.
There's now an additional two people with access, with the risk of the key being stolen from them, them losing it etc.
No, that's delegation. It's a useful feature to be able to give out multiple keys and an even more useful one if you can revoke them.