Comment by 0manrho
7 months ago
I agree with the general sentiment, but just a headsup for those who might be unaware...
> thousands of dollars
I know this varies a lot based on location, but if you're stateside, you can get perfectly functional used LTO6 drives for $200-$500 that support 6TB RW cartridges that you can still buy new for quite cheap (20pk of 6TB RW LTO6 carts[0] for $60), much cheaper than any other storage medium I'm aware of and still reasonably dense and capacious still by modern standards. Sure it's 3-4 generations behind the latest LTO's, and you might need to get yourself a SAS HBA/AIC to plug it in to a consumer system (those are quite cheap as well, don't need to get a full RAID controller), but all in that's still quite an affordable and approachable cold storage solution for prosumers. Is there a reason this wouldn't work for you? Granted, the autoloader/enclosed library units are still expensive as all hell, even the hold ones, and I'd recommend sticking to quantum over IBM/HPE for the drives given how restrictive the later can be over firmware/software, but just wanted to put it out there that you don't necessarily need to spend 4 figures to get a perfectly functional tape solution with many many TB's worth of storage.
0: https://buy.hpe.com/us/en/storage/storage-media/tape-media/l...
LTO6 capacity is 2.5TB. 6TB is "compressed" which these days is near worthless because data collections that size are likely to already compressed (example: video).
If the idea is to back up a hard drive, it's not nice to require big piles of tape to do it. Right now even the current LTO generation (LTO9, 18TB native capacity) can't back up the current highest capacity hard drives (28TB or more, not sure). In fact HDD is currently cheaper per TB (20GB drive at $229 at Newegg) than LTO6 tape ($30 for 2.5TB) even if the tape drive is free.
LTO would be interesting for regular users if the current generation drive cost $1000 or less new with warranty rather than as crap from ebay. It's too much of an enterprise thing now.
Also I wonder what is up with LTO tape density. IBM 3592 drives currently have capacity up to 50TB per tape in a cartridge the same size as an LTO cartridge, so they are a couple generations ahead of LTO. Of course that stuff is even more ridiculously expensive.
Unless I misunderstood something, the comment you replied to has a link to HPE selling packs of 20 new LTO-6 cartridges (2.5TB x 20 = 50TB) for $60 (i.e. $3 per 2.5TB cartridge) which is far cheaper than a hard drive.
Correct, it also misses the core point of the discussion: SSD's and HDD's are unreliable cold storage long term. Cheap HDD's are better than Cheap SSD's (debatable if you're willing to spring for high end parts, but that's outside the scope of value/affordability), but if that data is truly important, it's well established best practice to replicate (be it cloning, mirroring, parity, what have you) your storage media.
Sometimes, unfortunately, a user will value the data more than they can afford to properly replicate/secure it it, and compromises must be made. Also, Tape does require a higher buy in than most (individual) SSD's/HDD's demand before you can even start investing in actual storage media, even if going used, so there are absolutely valid contexts where the "right"/best available approach is just throwing $200 at second HDD and cloning/mirroring it, but best available compromise in any given specific context is a separate discussion from general best practices or best value in broad terms.
Correct, and absolutely worth noting, but point still stands. Had no intention of misleading, I called it a 6TB drive because that's what they're called (technically 6.25TB if we really want to get pedantic). Whether using LTO's compression or not, whether your data is already compressed or not, it's still a reasonable affordable, dense, reliable, approachable cold storage offering. Same is true even for LTO5.
It only starts to go sideways when you step up to LTO7 and above or try to get an autoloading all-in-one library unit. Though you can get lucky if you're patient/persistent in your bargain hunting.
You're both beating around the bush that is the core issue, though, and that's a lack of backup media that isn't a HDD for storing large amounts of data indefinitely, nevermind on a medium that doesn't have to be powered on every X interval to ensure it's still functional.
Prosumers/enthusiasts generally have three options for large-scale data backups (18TB+), and none are as remotely affordable as the original storage medium:
* A larger storage array to hold backups and/or versions as needed (~1.25x the $ cost of your primary array to account for versions)
* Cloud-based storage (~$1300/yr from Backblaze B2 for 18TB; AWS Glacier Deep Freeze is far cheaper, but the Egress costs per year for testing are comparable to B2)
* LTO drives ($3300 for an mLogic LTO-8 drive, plus media costs)
Of those, LTO drives are (presently) the only ones capable of having a stable "shelf life" at a relatively affordable rate. Most consumers with datasets that size likely aren't reading that data more than once or twice a year to test the backup itself, and even then maybe restoring one or twice in their lifetime. LTO is perfect for this operating model, letting users create WORM tapes for the finished stuff (e.g., music and video collections), and use a meager rotation of tapes for infrequent backups (since more routinely-accessed data could be backed up to cloud providers for cheaper than the cost of an associated daily LTO backup rotation). LTO is also far more resilient to being shipped than HDDs, making it easier to keep offline copies with family or friends across the country to protect your data from large-scale disasters.
It's the weird issue of making it cheaper than ever for anyone to hoard data, but more expensive than ever to back it up safely. It's a problem that's unlikely to go away anytime soon, given Quantum's monopoly on LTO technology and IBM's monopoly on drive manufacturing, making it a ripe market for a competitor.
I'd still love to see someone take a crack at it though. The LTO Consortium could use a shake-up, and the market for shelf-stable tape backup could do with some competition in general to depress prices a bit.
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