Comment by hello_computer
8 months ago
> moles from certian big corp are boycotting any substantial work on Xorg, in order to destroy the project
That's what I've always thought. The "X11 developers" pushing for Wayland weren't original developers so much as RedHat "maintainers," who (understandably) wanted a frontier to explore rather than janitorial work. All I know for certain is that X11 (even as of 15 years ago) mostly worked, while Wayland of 2025 is still full of headaches & breakages.
X did not "just work" for me 10 years ago, and neither is Wayland "still full of headaches and breakages"
I've had no substantial problems because of Wayland in the last, like, 5 years.
Thanks for your anecdotes. Here's a couple of counter-anecdotes:
---
X has "just worked" for me since at least ubuntu 8.04 (that's 2008, april, over 17 years ago, for those counting), probably earlier.
I don't recall having any particular issues with X on the fedora machines I ran before I switched to ubuntu 8.04, but I don't recall clearly enough to be able to confidently say that I didn't have any X issues.
OTOH, I also don't specifically recall having X issues since some time around Red Hat 6 or so, which would be around 1998 or 1999, so it might be more like 25-26 years since X didn't "just work" for me.
---
About a year ago, I heard that wayland might be approaching a usable state. So I decided to give it a try on a raspberry pi that I was setting up.
It took literally about 15 minutes before I ran into a problem where I wasn't able to do something I've been doing for decades on X. And I want to stress that I was hoping it would work - I was not out to find a reason not to use wayland, I just happened to run into one inside of about 15 minutes.
I spent a couple of hours trying to figure out how to do what I wanted to do on wayland. I put a nontrivial amount of effort into trying to solve the issue on wayland. During the course of this, I found several different/conflicting pieces of advice, none of which worked for me. I think IIRC I found one option which sounded promising but which meant recompiling the compositor, or something very-nontrivial like that.
I balked at that and switched the system over to X.
And the problem instantly went away, and everything started working again. And that machine currently has an uptime of well over a hundred days.
I would love for wayland to be a thing that actually works to the point that it's a viable replacement for X, but I grow more and more skeptical every year that this doesn't happen. I Expected it like a decade ago.
The reason X "just worked" is that it's very bad, obolsete software that nobody would touch so we all just got used to the things that didn't work.
High DPI, multiple monitors, hot-plugging, OpenGL... these things were hacks and pretty much never worked right. There's also very necessary for modern computers. We all just didn't care.
So what if my thunderbolt dock needed a reboot to connect a monitor? So what if youtube drops a few frames here or there? So what if I need to enforce vsync across the entire desktop just so I don't get splitting? So what if vertical bars appear for a few seconds after suspend? So what if 1.25 scaling looks like ass?
16 replies →
X just worked for a large subset of users. However Wayland just works for a large subset as well. In either case if you are in the subset where it doesn't work then you will complain. Wayland has a design such that if things don't work for you today we have a hope that we can make it work for you in the future. Many of the issues where X didn't work for some people could not be fixed, and some of those were issues that are becoming more important.
7 replies →
Nvidia, vmxgfx. I would run wayland if i could.
> I would run wayland if i could.
You can if you stop buying nvidia. The problem with missing drivers is principally the fault of the hardware vendor not of the kernel community.
12 replies →
2016-01-23 https://github.com/MaartenBaert/ssr/issues/431
2019-01-04 (only took 3 1/2 years to resolve!) https://github.com/flathub/us.zoom.Zoom/issues/22
2020-03-07 https://github.com/vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG/issues/51
2020-03-07 https://github.com/obsproject/obs-studio/issues/2471
2020-03-24 https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/6389
2023-09 https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/
2023-11-17 https://github.com/raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback/issues/149
More than 2/3rds of your examples are from over 5 years ago, and one of the links is to a site that replaces its content with an image of a testicle when hotlinked from HN.
6 replies →
Wayland is working as designed. The fix is to:
* design and implement a dbus protocol that does screen sharing the way you want it done
* get buy-in from all the major compositors and applications to implement your protocol themselves
I mean, should be a doddle for any serious project.
Most of the stuff that's come out of freedesktop.org always seemed to make things less usable. I'm glad to see people are finally giving up on it.
> Most of the stuff that's come out of freedesktop.org always seemed to make things less usable.
I thought so too. I also thought they have many problems and do not help very well. I mostly try to avoid them.
(There are problems with X window system as well (and with Xlib), but still it seems the freedesktop had made things that are designed in a worse way.)