Comment by ch33zer
5 days ago
This isn't at all a rebuttal of the post, more a different perspective. I started a new job while basically deeply depressed. It colored all my opinions of the company and my coworkers. As I'm coming out of that through a combination of medication and intensive CBT I'm realizing that a lot of the negativity I felt towards my job was the result of the depression. As things improve I'm realizing that the job is mostly neutral but my impression of it was colored by my mental health struggles. This isn't at all to say not to take the authors advice, just take care of yourself and be aware of the possibility that you may be distorting reality if there's any chance you're depressed
I've recently had a job that started out reasonably good, but after a year and a half, I started wondering what I was doing there, was I really in the right place? Some of the tickets I worked on went nowhere, and I didn't enjoy the stuff I was working on. That lasted a couple of months, and I was seriously considering quitting. And then came a complaint from a user that opened up a whole cesspit of necessary improvements, optimisations and bugs for something I'd previously worked on, and that turned into 9 months of the best fun I've ever had at work. Made a factor 20 improvement to a hideously complex algorithm that nobody understood, found and fixed a bunch of bugs in the algorithm that we had always thought was perfect -- you know, fun stuff. And then my contract ended. But on a high note.
This isn't general advice or anything, but I'm glad I didn't quit a year earlier.
The times I've really had to scramble on something at work describe both some of my best working experiences and some of my worst. I think a big differentiator is clarity. If I know that X needs to be done, and it's important and urgent I'm happy to dig in.
The bad emergencies tend to be scenarios where I'm told OMG we need to fix A, it's an emergency, only to be told a short time later that actually never mind problem B is the real emergency, and then jumping to problem C after that, and so on. That kind of scattered direction can be soul crushing, where I invest in a problem and get far along on a good solution, only to be told that oh actually that urgency was BS, but trust us this new emergency is totally important.
Exactly. In this particular case, it was fun because I recognised the problem and had/took the freedom to get to the bottom of this and fix it as thoroughly as I could. I could easily have decided to accept that the big import process took an hour, but I stubbornly thought it could be faster, and reduced it to 3 minutes. Biggest dopamine boost ever. Still coasting on that. And in doing so, discovered a bunch of bugs, undocumented behaviour users depended on, and ended up addressing all of it in the way I wanted.
That freedom was absolutely key. The same job could have been frustrating and stupid if someone else had been ordered to do what I did.
Steve Jobs said it most profoundly: "love what you do".
This is the opposite of "do what you love".
I wish I understood where he learned this.
It's very profound (and true).
One of many platitudes that kept me in working conditions and religion which were detrimental to my career and mental health.
Maybe it's useful to some who are in objectively good circumstances which they haven't learned to appreciate. I'd still advocate for getting other perspectives from trustworthy folks about ones specific situation.
And not taking advice from billionaires who think their fruity diet will cure their cancer.
to play devils advocate, you can try to “love what you do” while continuing to better your circumstances. No?
The quote doesn’t suggest “the job/career you have now is perfect for you, ignore all red flags”.
3 replies →
Possibly from the 1970 Stephen Stills song "Love the One You're With"
It is not the opposite. If you do what you love, you love what you do. So its more of, "love what you do" is what to aim for, and "do what you love" is one way to achieve this.
It’s a flip on the framing, and a non trivial one.
One is love what you do - which assumes regardless of what you’re doing, love it.
The other, do what you love - means choose things that make you love them.
They’re completely opposite in what choice they’re telling people to make.
8 replies →
If you do what you love, then you love what you do.
If you love what you do, you didn't necessarily get there by doing what you love.
Reminds me of: a duck is a bird but a bird isn't necessarily a duck.
I agree it's not the opposite.
2 replies →
I think the subtle difference is "Do what you love" is passive one is not actively doing anything. They have ideal in their head that may not match reality. "Love what you do" in my eyes is being present and actively loving the moment while doing the work.
A very common example is art. Most people love to draw things like characters or landscapes. But the real world application of art is usually ads, logos, and posters.
There's significant skill overlap, but little passion overlap.
Like dont pursue the happiness but be happy pursuing
A similar quote from Nietzsche has really struck to me:
Happiness is not doing everything you want, but wanting everything you do.
Smile more, you will be happier. On how long to know if a job is right, it depends how much you know what you are looking for.
Possibly his well known interest of Buddhism ?
On the other hand, some studies show that mildly depressed people have a more accurate model of the world. So what if you were right about your job initially, and the CBT is basically just gaslighting you into spinning things in a positive way?
Assuming that is true, does a more negative way of viewing things actually benefit you (even if it would be slightly more "accurate")?
If one has a choice (that means if there is no case of clinical depression):
At least anecdotally a bit of optimism improves my life quality a lot and results in a higher productivity, proactive solution finding and a more pleasant work environment. Constantly looking at the negative side of things (with a healthy serving of snark) contributes, in my opinion, to burnout and fatigue.
It's not difficult to imagine a number of scenarios where that perspective could bite you in the ass.
If you have a false impression of a person's character because you've jedi mindtricked yourself into not thinking the worst of people, you might end up trusting an untrustworthy person.
If you are in a toxic work environment, and you convince yourself it's not so bad, you might end up staying in a situation that is actively harming you.
We are speaking in the abstract and I can't comment on anyone else's experience. But I personally find toxic positivity and the endless drive to be more productive much more dangerous than being too negative.
8 replies →
I agree. While depression and negativity leads you to see things practically rather than in an optimistic and hopeful way, the quality of life and satisfaction in a little optimistic world is much better. I am yet to read Daniel Kahneman but he talks about optimism a lot.
3 replies →
The trick is to be positive about yourself and the people you can trust, but slightly negative about the world at large.
2 replies →
That's the kind of optimistic attitude I'd expect from Emperor Vespasian, builder of the Colosseum. You're role-playing your persona really well!
Personally, I employ/enjoy a highly skeptical form of optimism.
I think things could be great, but there are many obstacles along the way to be aware of.
It isn't true, it is obvious bullshit.
It is like making the argument that the most accurate view of life is doing nothing because we are all going to die anyway.
> some studies show that mildly depressed people have a more accurate model of the world
This is called the “depressive realism” hypothesis and there’s more evidence against it than for it.
The studies don’t show “more accurate model of the world” like the depressive realism pushers claim. They show isolated things like depressed patients performing slightly better in some arbitrary gamified task. There are studies that have the results going the other way, too.
It’s well understood that depressive episodes cause cognitive distortions that lead to overestimating the effort required for tasks, underestimating how easily things can be changed for the better, or ruminating on things that don’t matter.
The studies don't show they have a more accurate model of the world. The studies overwhelming only test the immediate judgements of their own behaviour and performance.
The more limited studies with different methodologies have found their judgement of other people's behaviour and performance is wrong. And that if you ask them after a delay (e.g. forcing them to use recall) instead of immediately, they are also wrong.
What does it mean for someone’s model of the world to be accurate? My experience with mild depression is that you notice many negative things which are true but then lack perspective about how much they matter. When you feel better you just don’t pay any mind to these negative things.
I’d argue that you can still have an accurate model of the world without the depression part.
I can’t back it up but recovering from depression by simply putting “rose colored glasses” is a recipe for bouncing back later. Happened to me.
In HN’s case: admitting that companies are quite toxic and more often than not working against you, that most people around you is probably an incompetent if put under a microscope and that the things you’re working on aren’t exactly changing the world for the better.
The trick perhaps is not letting those things make you cynical, and not acting on them. And forgetting yourself because you’re also a bit incompetent too, so you can let you and everyone else off the hook.
> admitting that companies are quite toxic and more often than not working against you, that most people around you is probably an incompetent if put under a microscope and that the things you’re working on aren’t exactly changing the world for the better
It would be so much easier to deal with if I wasn't surrounded by people, especially management, that act like we're on a mission from $DEITY. Seriously, I can get over on working on whatever inane unimportant thing. It's the entire circus acting like we're not that drives me nuts.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't imagine plumbers get talks along the lines of "We're top-notch leaders in our industry for fitting pipes! True innovators. Pushing the envelope. We are world-renowned for our culture and are continually pushing the limits of what's possible. Every day we inspire people to live their best lives and be their true selves. " Add on to that, plumbers are actually important! And they know it.
Related: did you do anything specific to help with your depression? I've been getting into TMS / ketamine / whatever else territory for mine.
1 reply →
I would like to add to this. I have been depressed since I was a teenager. Anxiety Panic attacks, poor sleep, s*ci*l tendencies. I was able to finally get a job at 29 and first 3 months into it, I realized this is not a right fit and the company and its management is chaotic at best. It was a red flag right from the start but I ignored it because I was desperate for a WFH job. After 3 years of therapy, my views had changed that it's not so bad (something that I think the optimistic view changed). I was also looking to move to North America so I kept stalling to find a new job but that was a different thing. After I slipped back into depression a while ago, I again started seriously considering quitting because now in 3 years the company has grown somehow and some of the employees are really toxic. In 3-5 months I seriously want to quit this time whether I switch or no as I will complete 4 years at a company I never planned on working beyond 6 months. So there might be some truth to this. When I am depressed I see all the realistic things going on. When I am doing well I tend to ignore lot of the red flags.
That may be a subset of people, you also don’t need to be depressed to have an accurate view of the world
There exists another subset of people that merely tolerate the overly optimistic general populace and don’t need that as a coping mechanism to understand and mold the world
CBT can definitely veer into gaslightning territory. But then, if it helps you cope, so what?
It is the same with religion. Even though gods objectively do not exist, at least not in a literal sense, it can still help people to cope better with their life and be an overall positive force. Or extremely harmful when abused.
The world is pretty depressing. Everyone is telling themselves little lies one way or another just to be able to function. And no, Atheists are not more rational than religious people per se, they tend to have other delusions.
Personally I think striving to have a realistic model of the world is still the best long term strategy and that those little lies are like drugs that will help you in the short term but wreck havoc in the long term but who knows. It is complicated.
>CBT can definitely veer into gaslightning territory. But then, if it helps you cope, so what?
That's myopic. There's only so much "reframing" you can do before the tension begins to rear its head. Serenity now, insanity later.
1 reply →
What is even an "accurate model of the world" in this context? Isn't it all just perception and impression and interpretation?
For example, a depressed person might think: "this company is shit and will go under in 6 months because my coworkers and management are so incompetent and malicious"
Let's say their prediction was true. Good job!
What if the depressed person missed that there were a couple of people at the office who actually were not incompetent and malicious, maybe people they would enjoy to get to know. What if there were opportunities to learn interesting things while the company crashed and burned.
To determine what worldview is most realistic you have to weigh what aspects of reality are most significant.
Mildly is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. What does mildly depressed mean?
The idea that there are varying degrees of depression is not a difficult concept to grasp.
It is a well established clinical term. It's not doing any heavy lifting.
Functioning, presumably.
How have you controlled for the possibility that you originally saw clearly and that the therapy is what has distorted your reality?
Yeah, reading this I thought the author should suggest to their friend that they talk to a therapist.
This is a good insight, but they already have a therapist. :) (I am the author)
Good on you for figuring that out. Not everyone is able to deduce that, it's good for your own accountability
That is true, our own perspective is to be taken into account. Sometimes it's worth trying to adjust your own view, but sometimes it's important to bail out before you gaslight yourself.