Comment by merksoftworks
8 hours ago
So egui is great for projects where the application runtime is short lived, or for overlays in longer lived projects. The visual equivalent of scripts, where you know you need a small amount of immediate visual feedback and tweaking parameters for it to be useful to the end user.
Flutter answers questions about more robust UI.
It's good that you chose the right tool for the job and more people should know that there are options. But fundamentally I'm most motivated by the possibility of a robust UI framework made from first principles to be as low friction as egui but with the accessibility, performance, and visual flexibility of stylable retained mode guis.
Raph Levien and the xilem project might be getting us closer.
Both approaches have their downsides and, in my view, retained mode and immediate mode tend to converge as the UI complexity increases. So far, no problems with implementing any UI I want in my experience with egui on a somewhat complicated application (Desktop word processor). Immediate mode is a breath of fresh air from React.
[Edit: although the standard accessibility criticisms apply to my application; although that's more of an issue with my implementation than an indictment of immediate mode generally.]
Accessibility problems are something both retained-mode and immediate-mode UIs have generally. I've found that you can kind-of hack it together but the best route is to incorporate the actual accessibility frameworks of the operating system(s) your targeting. Egui was doing this at one point I think but I'm pretty sure it's either broken now or just doesn't work all that well.
From what I've seen immediate mode seems suitable for less fancy UI requirements. If you want to start having a framework solve things like animations and such then you'll probably end up with some form of retained mode.
Over my years making UIs I've found most of the bugs you get is due to incorrect state handling in applications. Having a framework you use which is opinionated and helps you solve that is pretty nice. (If your UI requirements are such that you need it.)
I'm curious too. I currently have both a plasmid editor, and protein/molecule viewer using EGUI. Both have complex UIs, and I haven't hit roadblocks. I think the protein viewer might be more of a canonical immediate-mode case, because most of the window is a 3D render, but it still has a GUI above it.
I'm also thinking of building a word processor so I'd be interested to see what you're working on if you fancy sharing?
Appreciate the thoughts about both Flutter and egui.
It's not perfect, but I don't know if there's much on the market that addresses robust UI and single code base as well as Flutter.
Very open to other things that are not more complex than Flutter to accomplish the single codebase to multi platform solution it does provide.
If your UI is fast enough, why not in complex UI’s either? I’d say it gives you good motivation to keep your UI handling code as fast as possible.
Doesn't egui always re-render? I like my idle apps to be doing nothing, I don't want them running their render loop in the background
I think the default behavior is to only re-render if the window is active/focused. You can trigger a render at specific points, including in the main loop, which will result in the behavior you mention.
This can be problematic, e.g. some of the sensor interfaces I have, I want to always display correct data, even if not focused. So, I have to decide if I want to have old data shown in the background misleading users, or have a per penalty from constant renders. Or try something else to be clever. (Maybe have it update at a low rate if not focused? I think that's the move...)
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Any quarter decent imgui implementation will idle when there's no input or active animations, and the renderer can generate dirty tiles or rects to unnecessary redrawing -- if it matters, gpus are ridiculously overpowered for drawing a bunch of rectangles. Ui logic is usually firmly in the microseconds realm.
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By default it re-renders on each event. This isn't often on mobile apps, but moving a mouse across a desktop app triggers multiple vents. There is a function call to request a re-render if you want not to wait for an event.
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do you run without a compositor? I get where you're coming from, but 'idle' can mean a lot of different things and redrawing the whole UI at 60hz is not necessarily 'not idle' nowadays.
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