Comment by hatthew
3 days ago
Is anyone else bothered by hyperspecific products like this? 95% of what it does can also be done by scissors for 5% of the price and 10x the lifespan.
3 days ago
Is anyone else bothered by hyperspecific products like this? 95% of what it does can also be done by scissors for 5% of the price and 10x the lifespan.
Cutting thick cardboard with scissors is a good way to hurt yourself.
You need some strength and a sharp blade to cut cardboard with scissors, for a child, it can mean going full force. And the more strength you use, the less control you have, increasing the chance of hurting yourself. That's also the reason why dull knives are considered dangerous. Scissors are for paper, not cardboard.
This tool looks much more controllable, which means it is safer, even before considering the intrinsic safety of the mechanism, more precise, and more fun to use.
I remember the feeling of bruising my joints with scissors as a kid.
I remember cutting chart paper (thin card stock), then corrugated cardboard which was easy unless you were cutting perpendicular to the grooves and finally heavy card which, I agree was finger bruising. There's also some amount of fun in improvising tools from what you have around you. I'm wandering dangerously close to the "back in my day" territory but nevertheless. I think there's a place for childrens tools that are close enough to the real deal but still safe. However, going too far away from the real deal makes it just a toy.
I got my son some balsa, sandpaper and a sharp knife. I also got him a pair of gloves which were resistant to the blade. Showed him how to use all of those and he's quite good with his hands. Carved a few trinkets for his friends.
I remember an article about, I think the Inuit, exposing their kids to cutting tools early on in their lives. Can't find the link. Perhaps there's some kind of optimal point in between that balances between "real" and safe.
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See, it builds character!
Kids get really dull scissors, shared with other kids. Of course they’re difficult to use.
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The problem with this kind of thinking is that it doesn’t take into account how annoying other methods can be. Or how tools open up possibilities.
I can beat 10 egg whites by hand. I’ve done it several times. But it sucks. A handheld electric beater is fairly cheap and way better. You know what’s even better? A stand mixer that cost several hundred dollars.
Is it worth it? If you bake a lot it’s worth it.
This biggest problem with this kids toy is that it’s for kids and cost ~$250. It’s really an adult toy or something for the classroom.
If it was half the price, I’d pick one up, have bit of fun and on sell it or donate to other families.
I like it from the standpoint of kids not being afraid of power tools. Plenty of adults would never do woodworking because the tools seem too scary. Teaching kids that power tools don't need to be scary as long as they're used safely is a worthwhile output on its own IMO.
The best advice I ever got re: power tools from an old shop teacher was that before throwing the switch and powering up a machine, to count to 10 on one's fingers under one's breath while reviewing every aspect of the planned operation, and all the forces involved, reminding oneself that one wants to be able to repeat the count in the same way after the switch is turned off.
That said, I think it's best to maintain a healthy respect for, and even to a reasonable degree to be afraid of the machines and the forces which they can exert.
"Teaching kids that power tools don't need to be scary as long as they're used safely is a worthwhile output on its own IMO."
True but real safety first thinking is not something that a purchasing decision will fix.
I have a scar on one of my fingers that was caused by a broken broom! How bloody naff is that but it bled like buggery and a 1" flap of finger flapped for a while and needed stitches at A&E (for Americans - that's where you pop in and a few hours later pop out, all patched up without a credit card being involved).
I wasn't wearing gloves. I am a first aider, H&S rep for my company (my company - I care about my troops) and so on. I was sweeping my drive with a broom with a hollow metal tube handle and it partially snapped and hinged and caught my finger and partially sliced a lump. Oh and I am the fire officer and even my house has a multi page fire plan.
I own a plethora of torture devices - a table saw, multiple chain saws, chisels and the rest. I have skied for four decades and drive a car/van/lorry.
Safety first thinking doesn't mean that you escape all of life's efforts to kill you but you do get a better chance of avoiding damage.
A power tool that promises safety might be missplaced. However, this one does not missrepresent itself. It does what it does and it does it well.
For me, I will be digging out the hand cranked jigsaw when I show the grand kids how to chop off their fingers: A fret saw. However that thing looks like a great introduction to dealing with power tools.
> the tools seem too scary
They are too scary.
Consider table saws. SawStop built its brand on not cutting fingers off, which is scary enough. But it turns out that kickback causes a lot more injuries and that's not really addressed well by any tools.
https://www.sawstop.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulvP8Vv9SrE
There ought to be a market for MEs to design power tools that are safer for consumers. So where is the obviously-named "KickStop" table saw? Maybe the decline in the middle class makes that market too small to consider such improvements.
Safe is a function of training and guards and competence when using a tool and above all an awareness of the forces involved and how to position oneself so that should something go wrong, one will not be in the line of movement of potential projectiles. This means that the first thing one must ask oneself when walking up to a tool is, "Am I well-rested, and sufficiently clear-headed and well-versed in this operation that I will be able to focus on using this tool safely?"
Sawstop wouldn't have a business model if tablesaw accidents were tried by a jury of shop teachers whose awareness of this is brought into focus by a career of explaining how to safely use power tools (see my post elsethread).
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> So where is the obviously-named "KickStop" table saw?
It's called a riving knife?
The saw stop creator patented and tried to license his tech (not make a saw,) the major manufacturers didn't want to pay the license fees.
I sort of get it, for actual job sites using dimensional lumber you're going to have the saw in bypass the entire time because the wood is wet, making the safety moot so the market is there for hobbyists but not pros.
First thing the "pros" do is remove the guards. I've never seen a guard on a jointer or a shaper at a pro shop. The products fit the demand in the market.
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My recent Dewalt table saw purchase with a blade guard, riving knife, and anti-kickback. So they've gotten better at least.
I feel like you want to teach that they are dangerous and can be used safely when careful. A woodworker I know almost cut their finger clean off despite having years of experience.
A British magician called Paul Daniels managed to slice some fingers on a table saw. He had been making his own tricks gear for decades.
Safety thinking can slip - you only have to cock up once when you are pushing an amorphous mass into a blade spinning at say 3000 rpm and lose concentration.
Table saws, band saws etc and the like are dreadful.
My wife manages to make a simple drill/driver somewhat dangerous to the point that I have to sometimes fake a reason why husband should take over (yes I am very careful - she's generally sharper than the tool in question!)
The first step to respecting power tools or firearms is fearing what they can do when mishandled.
You don't need power tools for most of woodworking anyway. That's a ridiculous excuse to avoid it. I've built furniture and framed buildings almost entirely with hand tools.
I started with power tools. Moved to hand tools for a year or so when I moved houses and still had my table saw, etc. in storage.
Now that I my power tools are back in the garage — I can't quit the power tools — right back relying on them. I just couldn't plane quite as nice as my joiner (and certainly not in one pass). And sharpening the hand tools...
I earnestly want to do more hand-tool woodworking. I keep thinking that, as I get older, I'll eventually full in on hand tools. But at 61 years old ... not yet.
Quite right until you discover a router ...
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You should maintain a healthy fear of power tools. They're like big cats. You can be familiar, but never get too comfortable.
> I like it from the standpoint of kids not being afraid of power tools.
I'm personally cultivating my fear for power tools. I consciously work on it so I wouldn't get used to them and wouldn't stop being afraid. Fear makes me more attentive, more careful, it forces me to think first and to do next. To stop myself when things go not as planned and think again. It is almost impossible to distract me while I'm cutting wood or whatever I'm doing with a power tool. I'm afraid of the tool, I wouldn't let my attention to switch from it while it is powered.
It is funny, that psychologists believe that fears is a bad thing that must be eliminated. At least all I've talked about fears believed in that. But fears are good, they come with a danger detector included, and they are hard to ignore.
> Teaching kids that power tools don't need to be scary as long as they're used safely is a worthwhile output on its own IMO.
I believe, that either "to use safely" or "not scary". There is no middle ground. Though it maybe just my own way to the safety, maybe others know other ways.
> Plenty of adults would never do woodworking because the tools seem too scary.
The fears that stop you from doing are probably bad, but from the other hand, before using power tools you'd better learn how to do it safely. I learned all of them from experienced people, who demonstrated me how to do it properly, watched me and explained me what I'm doing wrong. So, maybe, they are right.
> I'm personally cultivating my fear for power tools.
I get what you're saying, but to get there you have to willfully conflate an irrational fear of unknown consequences with a rational fear of known consequences. The barrier for many adults to power-tool use is the former, which blocks them from acquiring the latter.
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Not at all bothered by this, this is very unique. Scissor skills are important but more so for paper which has limitations versus cardboard. I use a lot of power tools and my kid watches me kind of bored, unable to participate. I could easily see him feeling like we were 'working together' if I had one of these setup in my shop. He also likes to create all kinds of stuff and I'd be interested to see what he'd come up with.
But, what does bother me is the price, $250 seems steep.
It is not easy for children to cut cardboard with scissors. I'd say that remains true at least until age 10. Some younger may be able to manage a small amount of cutting but would get tired quickly.
I volunteer with scouts, kids aged 5-8. We ran a cardboard based activity with the makedo stuff. We tried to supplement with scissors, they were not effective.
Also, scissors tend to crush cardboard at the cut. This looks like it is not doing that.
I’m pretty sure a nibbler will not wear out anywhere as quickly as scissors.
It can allow young children to work independently so you’d have to factor in cost of supervision with the scissors.
Main problem with it is that it is more expensive than many real nibblers designed to cut steel, I guess for now that it is niche and designed for classroom use. Mass market it and I think it could easily come down to $50.
Cutting cardboard in straight lines with scissors is easy, but cutting convex curves other shapes is really not, especially if you want to avoid bending it and collapsing the corrugation. Personally I use a knife, but obviously that isn't suitable for very young kids (not hugely safe for me either lol, I almost cut the end of my thumb off not too long ago...)
Convex curves can be approximated by a series of straight cuts tangent to the desired arc. It's concave curves that are difficult.
Ah yeah, I meant to say concave.
If convex curves are too hard, just make a concave curve and keep the other side.
I am not sure if this is board stretcher-level pranking or actual advice. Bravo!
The problem of course is that often one side of the curve is mangled/distorted from fitting the tool into it --- guess which one it usually is?
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Not at all; you've missed the point. Everyone knows you can cut a box with scissors. The point is that you can't cut a board with scissors. This is a basic woodworking skill, and I think it's great if you can come up with a way to safely get kids accustomed to what those tools can do.
Are there all that many parents who want to teach their kid woodworking, but can't use the classic teaching method of taking them to the workshop and handing them a coping saw under careful supervision?
I mean, I'm sure there's a handful of parents who value woodworking skills but do no woodworking themselves - but are there enough to support a whole product category of $250 cardboard tools?
Depends on the age. I've had my 4yo in my garage with me at times. And while he's "helped" me with a few things, it generally consists of me holding the tool with his hands on the handle as well. His strength, dexterity, and simply small size prevents him from really getting much out of it other than a sense of participation. Valuable, but he's not learning anything.
When he's older and bigger, then using real tools will be more practical, and we can using the real thing. The risk will be more manageable then.
At this stage however, this chompsaw looks appealing. Instead of disappointing him when he wants to drive and having to diplomatically explain that he lacks the strength and coordination to use the actual tool, I can just hand him this. Give a bit of instruction, and then let him experiment. That feeling of "hey, I'm doing this myself" is exciting to him and gives him a sense of accomplishment.
Long story short, I see this as a product aimed at a younger audience who aren't old enough to take the lead (with guidance) in the workshop yet, but want the feeling of doing it themselves in a safe way. I like it.
$250 though. Ooof.
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I actually think this isn’t really an “at home” toy. A couple of these in an elementary classroom or a library or even a community maker space, make a lot of sense, since the building material is basically free.
I mean, it's a specialized $250 toy, I'm sure it has a very narrow audience! I'm just saying: it's not a scissor replacement.
Agreed. It's like that old Russia-America joke. When they go to space they find out pens don't work because of gravity. Americans spend millions developing a pen which works without gravity while the Russians use a pencil.
I don't like Russians, but it's so stereotypically American to over-engineer a complicated alternative to scissors.
And just like the old joke your are missing important practicalities.
Pencils in space were terrible. Small chunks of carbon absorber of and getting in electrics was bad. Pens were a huge improvement.
Likewise I can't only presume you haven't ever cut large quantities of corrugated cardboard with scissors or ever seen a child struggle with the task. This device looks to be a massive utility increase for cardboard cutting for children.
It wasn't the Americans who spent millions. It was a single American: Paul C. Fisher who spent it own money because he thought Astronauts should have a good pen to use in space. His pen was so much better than the pencils used by both the Americans and Russians that both immediately switched to using his pens.
A few extra important points, the NASA space pen was cancelled due to cost overruns and when they finally purchased the Fisher pens it was at normal retail prices.
And grease pencils were an option, though not as good as pens.