Comment by thyristan
1 day ago
Afaik those 5 million Palestinians are not Israeli citizens because they don't want to be, and rather would have their refugee and Palestinian citizen status. There are also Palestinians who have chosen to be Israeli citizens, with the usual democratic rights and representation, with their own people in the Knesset, etc.
And shooting enemies in a war is unfortunately not something you would investigate, it isn't even murder, it is just a consequence of war under the articles of war. In cases where civilians are shot (what Israel defines to be civilians), there are investigations and sometimes even punishments for the perpetrators. Now you may (sometimes rightfully) claim that those investigations and punishments are too few, one-sided and not done by a neutral party. But those do happen, which by far isn't "nothing".
It makes sense that people don't want to become citizens and legitimise the entity occupying their country and committing genocide, no?
> In cases where civilians are shot (what Israel defines to be civilians), there are investigations and sometimes even punishments for the perpetrators.
Obviously Israel doesn't consider children to be civilians
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gd01g1gxro
> It makes sense that people don't want to become citizens and legitimise the entity occupying their country and committing genocide, no?
I can accept not wanting to be part of that. But in that case, whining about missing democratic representation is just silly, of course you won't be represented if you chose not to be, no matter the reason.
> Obviously Israel doesn't consider children to be civilians
You seem to assume that all children are always civilians, but that is wrong. The articles of war don't put an age limit on being an enemy combatant. If you take up arms, you are a legitimate target, no matter your age. Many armies use child soldiers, and it is totally OK to shoot those child soldiers in a war.
I assume children queuing for food are not soldiers. Yes, yes I do.
If they are killed while they are in uniform and holding a gun during a gunfight, then they are soldiers.
> legitimise the entity occupying their country
What’s country? Palestine never existed as independent country.
Exactly, what's a country?
Israel never existed either, until it was administratively created in 1948. Maybe it shouldn't have been created where other people were already living?
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> committing genocide
I've been hearing this for as long as I can remember, yet the population numbers tell a completely different story. It makes no sense to speak of a genocide if the birthrate far outpaces any casualties. In fact, the Palestinian population has been growing at a faster pace than Israeli over the past 35 years (that's how far the chart goes on Google)
Ah, OK. So, in that case they can be killed, but just in a culling kind of way, is that it? Your children can be killed as long as you keep making them?
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So genocide hasn’t happened if the population grows?
‘Just adjust the frame of measurement. With this one simple trick, you can remove any genocide.’
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Palestinian citizens in Israel do not have the same rights as the Israeli Jew, with more than 50 laws discrimination against them. They also face systemic discrimination and also you cannot marry between faiths, all the hallmarks of apartheid. Initially Palestinians within the Green lines were also under military occupation and only after 80% of the other Palestinians were either massacred or ethnically cleansed, so it was basically a forced acceptance. Israeli policy has always been to have a an ethnic supremacy for Jews, so the representation in the Knesset is tokenistic at best. If Israel decides to expel Palestinians in Israel, there's nothing they can do, its the tyranny of the majority.
Palestinians in the West Bank do not have the option of becoming Israeli citizens, except under rare circumstances.
Its laughable that when you say that there are investigations. The number of incidents of journalists, medics, hospital workers being murdered and even children being shot in the head with sniper bullets is shockingly high.
One case is the murder of Hind Rajab where more 300 bullets were shot at the car she was into. Despite managing to call for an ambulance, Israel shelled it killing all the ambulance crew and 6 year old Hind Rajab.
Another example is the 15 ambulance crew murdered by Israel forces and then buried.
Even before the genocide, the murder of the Journalist Shireen Abu Akleh was proved to have been done by Israel, after they repeatedly lied and tried to cover it up. Another case was this one, where a soldier emptied his magazine in a 13 year old and was judged not guilty (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2)
The examples and many others are many and have been documented by the ICC and other organisations. Saying that it's not nothing is a distinction without a difference
> and also you cannot marry between faiths, all the hallmarks of apartheid.
Marriage laws have nothing to do with apartheid, a system that uses race to differentiate peoples.
There are plenty of countries where marriage is done on religion basis and there is no civil marriage at all. What does it have to do with Palestinians?
Because it is imposed by a a colonial population on the native Palestinians in order to maintain a jewish majority in the ethnostate.
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> with more than 50 laws discrimination against them
List them.
> you cannot marry between faiths
Which law bans this. C'mon show it.
> Palestinians in the West Bank do not have the option of becoming Israeli citizens
Because they're a different country, remember?
> List them. - Citizenship and Entry into Israel lay (2003), denies the right to acquire Israeli citizenship to Palestinians from occupied territories even if married to citizens of Israel - Absentee's property law, which expropriates the ethnically cleansed palestinians in 1948 - Land Acquisition for Public Ordinance, which allows state to confiscate Palestinian land - Jewish Nation state law that stipulates that Jews only have the right to self determination
There's actually 65 apparently https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/7/19/five-ways-israeli-l...
> Because they're a different country, remember?
They are being occupied illegaly for decades, remember? by a supremacist ethno state, remember?
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[flagged]
> who were not expelled by Israel in 1948
A large fraction of “expelled” Palestinians were “expelled” because Arab armies told them to leave for the time of fighting. For some reason you ignore this fact and put it all on Israel “expelling” people.
That's not true. It's a nationalist myth in Israel that was thoroughly debunked by none other than Israeli historians 40 years ago.
Palestinians overwhelmingly fled because:
* They were forced to at gunpoint by Zionist/Israeli forces, as at Ramle, Lod and many other places.
* Their towns came under direct attack by Zionist forces, as at Haifa and many other places.
* They feared for their lives, especially after Zionist massacres of Arab civilians at places like Deir Yassin became known.
This has been documented in great detail by Israeli historians for each Palestinian town.
For example, much of the population of Gaza comes from Palestinian towns that used to exist in what is now southern Israel. They were driven out and their towns were largely razed by Zionist forces in Operation Barak. Zionist forces had explicit orders to clear out the Arab population, which is what they did with extreme ruthlessness (including atrocities that are too horrible to describe on HN, but which you can read about in histories of the operation).
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> a small enough minority
Also the largest muslim minority outside of Africa.
> Israel is a democracy (albeit increasingly authoritarian) only if you belong to one ethnicity.
> You're referring to the small minority of Palestinians who were not expelled by Israel in 1948. They and their descendants number about 2 million now.
Your initial statement was highly sensational, strongly negative if true, and yet easily debunked. Statements like this on a contentious topic reduce one's credibility and the overall quality of discussion. Why do it?
If the United States were to strip 40% of its population (targeted on an ethnic basis) of citizenship and subject them martial law, would you consider it a democracy?
The answer is obvious. You can pretend to be worried about credibility, but you know what you're defending.
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