Comment by reliabilityguy
7 months ago
> If it's not a different country from Israel, then give them Israeli citizenship.
The period we are talking about had no Israel either, so I am not sure what was supposed to happen there in your view.
> There's a very simple reason Israel doesn't give the Palestinians citizenship: Israel wants to make sure the large majority of voters are Jewish.
Of course. We all (1) see what happens to non-muslims in other middle eastern countries, and (2) saw what happened to the middle eastern jewry after 1948. I doubt that Iraqi jews living in Israel want to live under Islamic rule again.
> It wants the land, but not the people who live there.
This is false. Israel multiple times traded land for peace. The latest one was leaving Gaza in 2005.
Why are you keeping twisting the facts to suit your narrative?
＞ Of course.
And you think that's legitimate? Keeping millions of people under permanent rule of a state with no rights whatsoever?
I'm not going to get into your historical claims, except to note that the reason why the situation for Middle Eastern Jews changed so drastically after 1948 was because a bunch of people claiming to represent all Jews conquered a strip of land in the Middle East and expelled the native population. That did not go down well elsewhere in the Middle East, and the fact that the new state was proclaimed "the Jewish state" painted a target on the back of Jews throughout the region, who had had nothing to do with the founding of Israel.
> Israel multiple times traded land for peace. The latest one was leaving Gaza in 2005.
Israel left Gaza in 2005 so that it could concentrate on the settlement of the West Bank. It was a strategic move to conserve their forces.
The only "land for peace" deal that Israel has made is with Egypt. Israel did that because it did not want to risk another war like 1973 with a serious military opponent.
> And you think that's legitimate? Keeping millions of people under permanent rule of a state with no rights whatsoever?
They do have rights. Why are you lying? They have PA, and they have all their rights there as determined by the PA.
> I'm not going to get into your historical claims, except to note that the reason why the situation for Middle Eastern Jews changed so drastically after 1948 was because a bunch of people claiming to represent all Jews conquered a strip of land in the Middle East and expelled the native population.
I see. So if some Jews in Israel do something, then the Arabs everywhere else are allowed to ethnically cleanse the Jews in other places. Thank you for clarifying this. Well, now we know where you stand on collective punishment :)
> Israel left Gaza in 2005 so that it could concentrate on the settlement of the West Bank. It was a strategic move to conserve their forces.
How does it change the choice that Palestinians made in Gaza?
> The only "land for peace" deal that Israel has made is with Egypt. Israel did that because it did not want to risk another war like 1973 with a serious military opponent.
So? It was a smart move, and proved itself.
Like man, you just showed with this reply alone that you don’t care about human rights, you just don’t like Jews.
> They have PA,
Kind of.
> and they have all their rights there as determined by the PA.
The PA doesn't administer Gaza (because of the civil war Israel actively facilitated, and because even though the parties came to an agreement on all-Palestine elections to resolve it, Israel has blocked them), and much of the West Bank (not just the Israeli settlements, but places where Palestinians live) is administered by Israel, not the PA.
And even the parts administered by the PA are subject to regular (and accelerated in the last couple years, with almost no international attention thanks to the focus on the part of the Israel-Palestine war taking place in Gaza) arbitrary violence by Israel, rendering "rights" determined by the PA moot in practice.
> They do have rights. Why are you lying?
I'd actually turn that around and ask you the very same question. You know that Palestinians in the West Bank have no rights whatsoever, and I don't understand what you're playing at with your obvious gambit here.
> They have PA, and they have all their rights there as determined by the PA.
The PA is totally powerless, as I'm sure you know. It gets to take out the trash and run the schools. The Israelis hold all the real power in the West Bank, and they do whatever they want, wherever they want. The IDF wants to invade a Palestinian city nominally under PA jurisdiction? No problem. The IDF wants to cut off the tax revenue of the PA? No problem. The IDF wants to nab someone in the middle of a Palestinian city? No problem. The PA is just as powerless as the Warsaw Judenrat was.
> So if some Jews in Israel do something, then the Arabs everywhere else are allowed to ethnically cleanse the Jews in other places.
I never said anything of the sort. The Jews of the Arab world were treated horribly after the founding of Israel. They suffered because of what people they had no control over (European and American Zionists) did.
> How does it change the choice that Palestinians made in Gaza?
It directly contradicts your claim that Israel's withdrawal from Gaza was an attempt to trade land for peace with the Palestinians. You're just changing the subject now.
> So? It was a smart move, and proved itself.
The "So what?" is that this undermines your claim that Israel is willing to trade land for peace with the Palestinians. They only traded land for peace with Egypt because Egypt was a credible military threat (which the Palestinians are not).
> Like man, you just showed with this reply alone that you don’t care about human rights, you just don’t like Jews.
I'm Jewish.
But this is how every conversation with a Zionist ends, in my experience. After they pull out all the talking points they learned at summer camp, they fall back to their last line of defense: "You just hate Jews." Or its cousin: "You're just a self-hating Jew." As if loving oneself requires one to support a little ultranationalist state on the other side of the world that's currently carrying out a genocide.
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