Comment by usuallymatt
9 months ago
I was tempted to use this but when I looked into the team behind it there seemed to be some issues as exposed by Louis Rossman here: https://youtu.be/Dl1x1Dy-ej4.
Instead, I installed CalyxOS and have been using it over a year now and I'm very happy with it. Check it out.
Hi there. GrapheneOS community manager here. It's a weird video to bring up without any context. Louis Rossmann made that video and leaked private conversations that were had fairly soon after the person in question was repeatedly swatted by someone who has a fan of the person Rossmann was voicing support for.
Unfortunately, Rossmann turned out to be very dishonest, which in retrospect makes sense, seeing as he has no issues with using Kiwi Farms. He's verified account there is named "larossmann". I suggest you look into it.
It's not just something he's done with GrapheneOS and the founder of the project. There are many videos, such as the one he did on Linus from Linus Tech Tips where he similarly misrepresented things and ascribed mental health labels on them.
Regarding CalyxOS, I would recommend people check out https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm as a third-party comparison for various projects, including GrapheneOS and CalyxOS. They're not similar projects.
that comparison you are pasting in multiple replies has lineageos without micro-g.
MicroG is extremely insecure. Does nobody remember that they used to print your Google password in plain text in the logs?
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The swatting attacks are public record, and can be confirmed through Toronto police records.
> another hallucination by the Graphene developer
I'm going to assume that by you saying "another" you mean that there were hallucinations before this one.
What you are doing here is repeating baseless claims that they're crazy, which is complete nonsense. This is exactly the kind of problematic stuff that shows up on Kiwi Farms. Again, Rossmann has an account there and some of his videos seem to be made to appeal to Kiwi Farms users.
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Unfortunately I don't think they do.
Disclaimer, I am a GrapheneOS user. I was introduced to GOS by Louis Rossmann initial 2 or 3 videos talking about giving them a FUTO grant, as well as praising GOS and showing how it easy it was to install, and how it gave back control to the user, and all the good things that GOS genuinely provides.
I have (unfortunately) followed this saga and went down the rabbit hole since the very beginning. To my understanding based on publicly available data, the key "evidence" put forward by GOS developer(s) / community manager would be:
1. Louis Rossmann leaving the now pinned comment "Informative but unfortunate" on TechLore's video on the leadership of GOS. They claim this is Rossmann showing support for Techlore and his community to (allegedly) harassed the (at the time) lead developer of GOS.
2. Louis Rossmann having KiwiFarm account. Yes, KW is a cesspit. However, all of Rossmann's message on the board mostly focus on either addressing misconceptions about himself, or promoting right to repair and similar topic. This can be easily checked, and at no point there is any public evidence of him supporting harassment toward the GOS developers.
3. Louis Rossmann being acquainted with leadership of other de-googling Android OSes (CalyxOS mainly I think) and also giving them a FUTO grant.
Essentially, "guilt by association". I know this because I have asked the community manager (goes by mbananasynergy on HN, and similar aliases on other platforms), and that is what they provided as "evidence" for Rossmann being guilty of harassing or promoting harassment against them (along with mentions of having 2 millions of USD worth of backing and ready to sue Rossmann, which has not materialized as far as know since ~1.5 years ago).
I want to preface by saying that GOS is really a good software, I have been using it for 2 or 3 years since then, and no complaints on that side. My biggest gripe however, is indeed with the leadership and management of the community.
I created a new account instead of posting this with my main because the leadership is in my experience very abrasive, to say the least. I have been banned without appeal from their Mastodon for leaving "thumbs up" smiley on : 1) messages suggesting the GOS devs to do an interview with Rossmann (as he did with other projects that received a FUTO grant) to further spread the word, or 2) messages suggesting to clear up the misunderstanding between the devs and Rossmann.
Any disagreement on their official narrative, or contrary opinion (even in good faith) leads to bans if they are in control of the platform, and accusations of collaborating with groups that harass the developers. Even here, anything contrary to that narrative will receive the usual wall of text describing the poster as sockpuppets, harassers directed by Rossmann, Techlore, CalyxOS, or any other projects GOS developers are beefing with.
I am disappointed by the situation, because I think GOS could have a larger presence and contribute to raising awareness about the importance of data security, but their leadership seems to be a considerable roadblock on that direction.
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"Never meet your heroes". Also, the opening monologue to Tool's Third Eye[0].
The older I get the more examples I've come across of a person destroying their reputation by either self-over-exposure (social media) or just basic exposure via news of some outrageous or illegal behavior.
I don't have a problem with whatever line you choose to not cross, and I was once much more self-righteous, but I've more recently pretty much made the conscious decision to separate product from producer, art from artist, etc.
Theo Lengyel was recently arrested for murdering his girlfriend, and yet I will still listen to and enjoy Mr. Bungle's music.
Gary Glitter... I still like the song Rock n Roll Part Two.
J.K. Rowling has some controversial views on transsexual women, but that doesn't mean that the Harry Potter series is any less worthwhile reading than it was before.
ReiserFS
I still buy Nestle Quik occasionally
Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, name almost any tech bro... (but not Steve Wozniak, he's a treasure)
Sports stars.
Musicians.
I wonder how many other things are worthy of protest if we knew all the facts about all the people who were involved in it's creation.
(I'm attempting to respond to the general concept of "he/she/they bad = it bad", not commenting on GrapheneOS vs CalyxOS or anyone's personal choice over where / what they choose to apply "he/she/they bad = it bad" to, other than saying that it should be a conscious decision not a reflexive reaction)
[0]: https://genius.com/Tool-third-eye-lyrics
This a video where he openly bullies someone, live streams their private messages where they're getting upset with him bullying them and repeatedly, blatantly lies about them including falsely claiming they're insane, etc.
Rossman lied about stopping using GrapheneOS and has continued using it after that point.
The video was made to direct harassment towards the project and founder after the project refused to work with Rossman.
He has done similar things to others, labeling them as insane and delusional.
> This a video where he openly bullies someone, live streams their private messages where they're getting upset with him bullying them and repeatedly, blatantly lies about them including falsely claiming they're insane, etc.
That is the most disingeneous take on the video. The claim this kind of commenters that freely carry water for the toxic GOS (ex-?) lead developer is the exact reason why Rossmann made the video. The evidence is all there for the public to see. Daniel does not get to essentially harass people he disagrees with after they have been asked to not contact them, threaten them to "publicly expose them" and get away scott free.
Being a genius at cyber security or autistic does not give one a free pass to treat other like garbage.
> The video was made to direct harassment towards the project and founder after the project refused to work with Rossman.
The video was made to expose the harassment of the project founder toward Rossmann, when the former contacted him out of the blue with frivolous accusations after they parted way a year earlier due to un-reconciliable disagreements.
> He has done similar things to others, labeling them as insane and delusional.
No evidence provided, as usual.
>No evidence provided, as usual.
You should watch Rossmann's video on Linus - he has a habit of doing these hit pieces.
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You are exactly right. To summarise for those who do not want to watch a video, the video shows communications with Graphenes lead developer in which he was extremely hostile and threatened Rossman. It also goes into how said developers hallucinates being attacked by specific other sites, like a Linux YouTube channel that obviously did nothing to him. His goons then attack those projects.
You have to be aware that you give that person root when you use Graphene. All possible technical improvements aside this is a very big risk. He claimed he would step back after the video released, then called that a lie and continued with everything.
Calyx seems to be the best alternative right now without such a risk factor.
I second this opinion, with some additional nuance.
While I don't think the developers necessarily hallucinates being attacked (i.e. given the nature of the project, I would expect them to be persons of interest, be it from surveillance agencies, or even state actors), the main issue with Rossmann is their claim that he is either personally directing harassment against GOS, or colluding with and encouraging other communities to harass (mainly Kiwifarms, Techlore, CalyxOS, and other Android related FOSS projects). This claim seems to originate then cascade from Rossmann leaving the comment "Informative, but unfortunate" on TechLore's video criticizing GOS's leadership. This is taken as explicit support of TechLore community's / KiwiFarms alleged harrassement on the lead GOS developer, and this has somehow been cascaded and blown out of proportions, and considered by GOS developers as evidence of Rossmann's wrong doing against them.
As mentioned somewhere else, I am using GrapheneOS since 2 or 3 years now, based on Rossmann recommendations. The software is very good, pretty much native Android experience, but without the extra alleged Google snooping / root access. Rossmann himself seemed to have stopped using it as his main device because of fear of retaliation given that the GOS devs could potentially target him. Better safe than sorry. I still use it because I am not that high profile of a person, and generally will use throwaway when it comes to discussing anything GOS related at this point. The overall leadership however, based on Rossmann's and later my personal interactions with them however, did leave a bad after taste.
> Rossmann himself seemed to have stopped using it as his main device because of fear of retaliation given that the GOS devs could potentially target him.
But he didn't. It's clear in his later videos that he was still using GrapheneOS, I believe even for months after the video.
> Better safe than sorry.
People who are familiar with how GrapheneOS updates work wouldn't agree. No identifiers are sent to the update server, so targeted updates aren't possible that way. Also, update servers only host static files. If Rossmann was really that worried, all he'd have to do is use a VPN. But that was all just a huge dramatic act so his video would get more views, and possibly to entertain his fellow Kiwi Farms members.
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Calyx has lackluster security practices, and even removes signature checking so they can sell microG as Google Play Store to apps. This is an objective statement, graphene OS is leagues ahead of anything on the market in terms of security, while calyx is basically just a custom ROM to tinker with.
As for the personal aspect, the lead developer is definitely not the best representative of the project from a communication perspective as he might not have that kind of social skills (based on his posts). [1]
But he (Micay) is an excellent security researcher, and has an excellent track record when it comes to prioritizing his users. There was a sponsorship in the beginning, where the legal entity, CopperheadOS tried to hijack the whole project. But Micay rather kill the project, than let the users' security suffer and revoked the signing keys. And I'm sure such a betrayal would cause anyone to lose a lot of faith in others' actions.
> Give that person root
Complete bullshit, what root?! And if anything, you are the one who are trying to discredit a project here, by sharing some dumb clickbait video.
[1] I see that there is now a project manager doing most of the communication, which is an excellent solution!
Do I have to explain what root is, or what are you not understanding about the concept of the software provider having complete control of the software on your phone and thus having root rights?
Your CopperheadOS description is one perspective, one that does not look all that believable now after his mental illness became clear.
I did not share the video, but I would and it is not clickbait.
I will not further respond to you, I don't think this would lead to a fruitful discussion. Kindly think about what kind of trust is necessary to trust in the proper functioning of a device as personal as a modern phone, and think about attack scenarios that could occur when the main developer of your OS is not trustworthy in the slightest.
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Can you elaborate on why this is a risk factor? What do you mean by saying we're giving him root? If a person is paranoid of being chased i would expect them to put even more effort into the security of the OS he develops, not to add backdoors. But please expand your own reasoning.
To put it simply, the (at the time) lead developer of GOS and Rossmann had some disagreements.
At the time, Rossmann was mainly using GOS, but due to what he perceived as hostile behavior from GOS toward him through their communication, he opted to stop using GOS (at least on his main device, as he claims).
His rationale was that the behavior of said lead developer was not "rational" and "scary", and since the developer has not only edit access to GOS code but also update publishing infrastructure, Rossmann's data or himself could be targeted through malicious code pushed via an update, for example. While GOS is opensource and malicious code or exploits could be detected by the community, he himself did not have confidence to audit the source code to make sure it was safe, hence his decision to stop using.
By risk factor, I think the grandparent suggests that something similar could happen to someone else using GOS, the risk factor being essentially at the mercy of GOS developer, would they wish to harm said user.
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Well, he can do everything to your phone, software and data by pushing software updates. When there was a dispute in the former project copperhead he deleted the cryptographic keys, blocking software updates. Paranoia could result in just making the system more secure, but why not add a backdoor to find the spies in your userbases that communicate with the black suited men that secretly run our government? After all it is easy, they all play a specific game where they communicate via secret messages in chat.
You just don't know what will happen is what I'm saying.
The "he has root" is also a reference to ubuntus shuttleworth.
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There's way much more to it than what you said here.
> extremely hostile and threatened Rossman
At the time, he was very upset. You know, because he was swatted multiple times. Of course he was upset when Rossmann showed his true colors and was trying to talk to him. Rossmann saw this as an opportunity and recorded it as it was happening. He tries to portray Daniel as crazy and people who attack the project and his friends on Kiwi Farms lap that stuff up.
It's not true that he stopped using GrapheneOS, though. He continued using GrapheneOS for months after that video, which you can see by watching his later videos.
> hallucinates
Repeating baseless claims that he's crazy.
> You have to be aware that you give that person root when you use Graphene.
What? This is a very strange way to say it. Either way, it's literally impossible for someone on the GrapheneOS team to target someone like what was claimed in the video. GrapheneOS devices don't send identifiers when they contact the update server. The update servers also only host static files.
> Calyx seems to be the best alternative right now without such a risk factor.
The "risk factor" is completely false. It's all made up to attack GrapheneOS, making the founder look like a crazy person, then people are scared of using the OS. CalyxOS is not a hardened OS and rolls back security in some ways. It's not the next best alternative for people who care about these things.
Nothing I said is baseless and contrary to you, I do provide sources.
> Of course he was upset when Rossmann showed his true colors
I saw the chats. You lie. Showing his true colors = not accepting that there is an evil conspiracy and asking for proof. You are completely brainwashed and I will not continue this discussion.
If Calyx is not the next best alternative be invited to link to what you think is the best alternative. I still think it's Calyx.
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