”While in Norway, OpenAI will also engage with government officials to explore opportunities for collaboration, including boosting AI adoption and helping to deliver on Norway’s sovereign AI goals for the benefit of its people.”
Aka, Snowden thought us nothing.
Norwegians beware of ChatGPT used as a weapon to move oil money from the people to the ”future of business ”.
Worked in Norway for six years in a research lab (50% private | 50% public).
First thing I noticed when I arrived: they are using Google for emails, sharing documents, drives, meetings, research projects, etc.
The loss of sovereignty that this represents AND the major risk for leaks/theft is MAD.
It was a research lab entirely focused on tech/CS/computational science
So it's not like they don't know stuff about technology.
Years prior to this, I'm in Finland in a tiny lab in Turku/Åbo (the city has two names, one in Finnish the other in Swedish.
I remember there was a dude doing his master's trying to integrate a bunch of devices (phone, desktop, laptop, cloud, etc.) so that basically your AI assistant can automatically handle stuff. This implied A LOT of constant (or almost constant) data collection.
During one of the meeting, I think I'm the one who asked: "But wait, isn't this a massive issue in terms of privacy?"
The big boss of the lab, replied: "Oh I know you're from France, and you guyz care a lot about this. But here we simply do not"
Conclusion:
I haven't looked at sociological studies trying to build an historical overview of the Nordic people and their relation to electronic privacy. But my experience goes so much against the idea I had about Nordic "culture" (this word means nothing here: Finnish and Norwegian are VERY different societies, but bear with me).
I really believed that in those countries I'd find some high priority, super secured, home made, safe solutions for handling messaging, data, research -> it is REALLY NOT THE CASE, I haven't seen ANY OF THAT; they're all using USA made cloud-(AI)-tech.
The Nordic countries act as if they were an extension of the Angloamerican culture for some reason. They sure would object to their data being used by China or Russia for example, but American companies doing it doesnt pose a problem. But France has its own national identity, and it does not see itself as the extension of Angloamerica. So its natural that Angloamerican corporations having unfettered access to its data would be a no no.
I wouldn't call Her dystopian per se, as it's more an individual story instead of applying to a society as a whole. Dunno what a sequel would look like though.
And also, it's no longer science fiction; there's people having relationships with chatbots which can easily be made to do voice transcription / synthesis, and r/characterai melts down whenever they have an outage.
I wouldn't characterize "Her" as dystopian at all. The future shown in the film is, quite frankly, probably in the top quintile of outcomes we can hope for when it comes to AI. The only truly horrifying thing it depicts is the return of high waisted pants in men's fashion
Huh. I guess I'm old now, but my first thought was obviously the interstellar transportation device with a big honkin' rotary dial to select your destination.
On the plus side, a ton of electricity generation capacity is being built for AI datacenters. If this is a bubble and it pops, electricity prices are going to fall faster than you've ever seen before.
Norway is currently building very little new power generation at all, unfortunately. NIMBYism is blocking onshore wind, ecological concerns blocking hydro. This has already started hurting, and is projected to get worse. Before taking any AI datacenters into account.
Electricity prices have a pretty hard bottom that additional supply can't lower. At least where I live distribution is more often the bottle neck than supply.
Even if it pops, I think the cat is already out of the bag.
About LLMs:
Maybe there won't be much training going around as model we might starting to hit diminishing returns with the current model architectures/approaches, but I believe inference is here to stay. Scaffolding code, trivial functions, ... are things that LLMs excel at doing and once you get used to offload those to the LLM it is really hard to get back to doing it manually.
About Image/Video generations:
Here I believe there is even more to explore and I consider this separate from LLMs in the context of AI winters/bubbles. Especially regarding the video generation part.
I am not in the field, but I believe the appeal of being able to create movies without needing xM$ for actors' salaries is huge. And if you can even replace the VFX also with Video Generation then it is a 3 birds with one stone scenario (You pay for AI compute and you replace actors, VFX specialists, and compute costs for render farms).
So, I believe that there is not a scenario in which electricity prices plummet as you describe. Maybe locally around datacenters that were primarily built for LLMs training, but not globally.
Increasing demand is the only reason anyone every developed more supply. And the future will obviously need more energy production. Development costs money so consumers will pay for it with higher prices but Norway just got new, large consumer to help foot the bill.
In the past few decades, data centers have been placed with latency in mind - ie. Typically you don't want to be more than 1000 miles from users.
However, in the world of AI, latency is already 1 second plus, so the economics change - you do better to build where there is cheap electricity and free cooling.
Iceland is a small country, so it'll depend on what power infrastructure is already there, too much power consumption will overload the grid - unless they build new power plants and other infra.
Almost all countries have taxes and regulations on electricity (grid maintenance isn't free!), however at AI datacenter scale it makes sense to build the power plant on the same site as the datacenter, therefore avoiding those electricity taxes.
So wherever you build, you'll most likely be building the same wattage of power station as you do datacenter.
Lots of other resources can be shared too - for example shared cooling systems
Power is why you would build in Iceland. There is a lot of geothermic potential there. It's after all, the land of hot springs and volcanoes.
So if you need more power, build a new geothermic power plant.
Yeah a stargate must be something that gives the humanity new superpowers, like exploring other planets in distant parts of the galaxy, not yet another AI slop factory.
I do not understand why they chose Norway. I would choose a country where it is easy to build up a new power plant quickly with solar and wind, close to the site of the data center. Maybe they just have too much electricity up there that is not needed by the population or existing industry?
A big reason to not do it lower down in europe is also just that it's naturally very cold in northern norway so you already save on energy that would be needed to cool it. Meta has datacenters at around the same latitude but in sweden for the same reason.
I've imagined for a long time that eventually we'll shift the bulk of our heavy computation closer to the poles, and use those data centers to power our society. You either use solar power and shift the computation from north pole to south pole seasonally depending on which place is in eternal sunshine, or, since these places are so far away from major population centers, you could just plop down a bunch of giant nuclear reactors without too much resistance.
> Maybe they just have too much electricity up there that is not needed by the population or existing industry?
Yes, this is basically the case. It's quite expensive to transfer power across several degrees of latitude, and as a result, the price of power in the south of Norway is sometimes orders of magnitude higher than in the north.
Maybe solar and wind aren't viable as they might seem, and/or, Norway isn't as populous as people would think. Total population is just 5.5m, which is the scale of an average US state or a major city in Asia. Workload would be smaller than typical mental image of "a gigantic AI datacenter that serves everyone in a country".
Northern Norway has lot of cheap and stable hydro capacity. The prices there for baseload power are cheap. Interesting part of that market is that they lack internal north-south transfer capacity. So much that Finland which has relatively more north-south capacity has cheaper electricity at same latitude than in Norway...
Norway has a good amount of power generation, and most notably, excellent hydro storage, meaning it has a good spread of cheaper power, rather than peaks and valleys of high and low cost like the UK has (which has lots of wind, but little storage).
«Stargate Norway is planned to deliver 230MW of capacity, with ambitions to expand by an additional 290MW. The facility will target to deliver 100,000 NVIDIA GPUs by the end of 2026, with the intention to expand significantly in the years ahead.»
Makes it sound both like a power plant and a semiconductor factory..
Norway's public and largest news network, "NRK," made a straight-up mistake and wrote that it would produce AI chips. They later corrected it. But obviously, the journalist had no idea how big news that would be if Norway were able to host a TSMC-style factory.
If those are a100 GPUs, then we are looking at 21.6GWh of electricity in a month at full power at 300W. At 0.16 cents per kW that 3.456M euros per month for the GPUs alone.
According to Wikipedia, in 2021 Norway produced 157.1TWh of electricity, that's 13.1TWh per month. The GPUs will consume less than 1% of the total electricity production capacity Norway has (or had in 2021).
Norway currently uses fully or close to 100% renewables, according to electricitymap. Hopefully this investment won't turn that around.
This is being done in partnership with a company called NScale. They once sued a friend of mine over software he wrote, and lost.
I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, but if you’re going to play those kinds of games and still lose, that’s not the kind of partner I’d trust.
> I mean, when multiple countries are signing on, I think it’s gonna be fine
So? They're not paying for it, are they?
From what I can tell in the link I posted (and this could be wrong, so corrections welcome):
1. The project needs ~$100b (although a fraction of that will be sufficient to get the first deployment online)
2. OpenAI and Softbank have each committed ~$18b
3. OpenAI is trying to raise ~$40b to stay in business
4. The majority of that ~$40b is coming from Softbank
5. Softbank has ~$30b cash on hand and is syndicating at least ~$10b in investment for the OpenAI raise.
6. OpenAI has projected a burn rate of ~$40b/year by 2028.
To me it looks like Software is committing $30b to OpenAI + $18b to Stargate. OpenAI, if the raise is successful, will receive $40b over a period of time of which $22b will be available to OpenAI if they make good on their commitment of $18b for Stargate.
Which means that OpenAI needs, in the next few years, $40b/year to run, but will only have $22b after they meet the Stargate commitment in the coming year, leaving them short of operational cash and requiring a further round of investments.
Anyone needing context on this: Norway's electrical infrastructure is almost too good since citizen's prices are set in competition with exporting to the UK, and mainland Europe.
Probably will reap the rewards in about 10 years time once the UK is producing huge amounts of wind and Europe solar, but that's not nuch of a consolation for the minute.
Personally, as a Norwegian, I am really hopeful for this. I hope the "Not in my backyard" sentiment won't block this project, as it has so many times here. Narvik will be a great place. Lots of renewable energy, a history of industry, and a cool North Atlantic climate for cooling it all.
Though I am starting to recognize in myself that I think AI is so cool, that I might be a bit naive. But I just love it so much, use it so much, and have a childish pleasure in it, that I'm starting to think that I need to curb my enthusiasm.
I do note that the other side of the spectrum has no problem with representation, though. With just as unnuanced attitudes like: AI is evil, useless, capitalistic exploitation, and so on. So the pessistic view is more than enough represented in the public discourse. So maybe I can just let myself be in love with this tech.
Have we as a species considered that the very last thing we need given our climate crisis and already near-apocalyptic state (fires, floods, storms - it's biblical!), is some risky tech bro vanity project gamble eating up the rest of our resources and accelerating the death of our species?
That maybe the attempt of capital to finally replace pesky labor with cheap machines isn't worth risking it all?
No? Guess it's time to scream into the void some more.
”While in Norway, OpenAI will also engage with government officials to explore opportunities for collaboration, including boosting AI adoption and helping to deliver on Norway’s sovereign AI goals for the benefit of its people.”
Aka, Snowden thought us nothing.
Norwegians beware of ChatGPT used as a weapon to move oil money from the people to the ”future of business ”.
Worked in Norway for six years in a research lab (50% private | 50% public).
First thing I noticed when I arrived: they are using Google for emails, sharing documents, drives, meetings, research projects, etc. The loss of sovereignty that this represents AND the major risk for leaks/theft is MAD.
It was a research lab entirely focused on tech/CS/computational science So it's not like they don't know stuff about technology.
Years prior to this, I'm in Finland in a tiny lab in Turku/Åbo (the city has two names, one in Finnish the other in Swedish.
I remember there was a dude doing his master's trying to integrate a bunch of devices (phone, desktop, laptop, cloud, etc.) so that basically your AI assistant can automatically handle stuff. This implied A LOT of constant (or almost constant) data collection.
During one of the meeting, I think I'm the one who asked: "But wait, isn't this a massive issue in terms of privacy?" The big boss of the lab, replied: "Oh I know you're from France, and you guyz care a lot about this. But here we simply do not"
Conclusion:
I haven't looked at sociological studies trying to build an historical overview of the Nordic people and their relation to electronic privacy. But my experience goes so much against the idea I had about Nordic "culture" (this word means nothing here: Finnish and Norwegian are VERY different societies, but bear with me).
I really believed that in those countries I'd find some high priority, super secured, home made, safe solutions for handling messaging, data, research -> it is REALLY NOT THE CASE, I haven't seen ANY OF THAT; they're all using USA made cloud-(AI)-tech.
The Nordic countries act as if they were an extension of the Angloamerican culture for some reason. They sure would object to their data being used by China or Russia for example, but American companies doing it doesnt pose a problem. But France has its own national identity, and it does not see itself as the extension of Angloamerica. So its natural that Angloamerican corporations having unfettered access to its data would be a no no.
1 reply →
It’s not specific to those countries. In France for example, major companies store their data (including research) on Microsoft or Google servers.
For modern collaboration tools you don’t have that many options.
Yep, AI sovereignty shouldn't mean handing over control to foreign entities with better PR teams
Isn't Norway a key NATO member and huge buyer of F35 jets and other key US tech? What should Norway do? Buy Chinese and Russian instead?
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I assume many who work at OpenAI have seen Pantheon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon_(TV_series)
I assume people at OpenAI take inspiration from dystopian SciFi (like 'Her')
I wouldn't call Her dystopian per se, as it's more an individual story instead of applying to a society as a whole. Dunno what a sequel would look like though.
And also, it's no longer science fiction; there's people having relationships with chatbots which can easily be made to do voice transcription / synthesis, and r/characterai melts down whenever they have an outage.
I wouldn't characterize "Her" as dystopian at all. The future shown in the film is, quite frankly, probably in the top quintile of outcomes we can hope for when it comes to AI. The only truly horrifying thing it depicts is the return of high waisted pants in men's fashion
This isn't limited to OpenAI, Silicon Valley as a whole behaves like that (see Zuck wanting to make the metaverse a reality)
This show had an interesting concept for copying a brain (lasering a brain off layer by layer like reverse 3D printing)
That was my first thought as well. Sounds like a cool name for a black site.
Huh. I guess I'm old now, but my first thought was obviously the interstellar transportation device with a big honkin' rotary dial to select your destination.
ᐰ
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North Norwegians will finally experience higher electricity prices like us in the south experience since a few years.
On the plus side, a ton of electricity generation capacity is being built for AI datacenters. If this is a bubble and it pops, electricity prices are going to fall faster than you've ever seen before.
Norway is currently building very little new power generation at all, unfortunately. NIMBYism is blocking onshore wind, ecological concerns blocking hydro. This has already started hurting, and is projected to get worse. Before taking any AI datacenters into account.
Electricity prices have a pretty hard bottom that additional supply can't lower. At least where I live distribution is more often the bottle neck than supply.
1 reply →
Even if it pops, I think the cat is already out of the bag.
About LLMs: Maybe there won't be much training going around as model we might starting to hit diminishing returns with the current model architectures/approaches, but I believe inference is here to stay. Scaffolding code, trivial functions, ... are things that LLMs excel at doing and once you get used to offload those to the LLM it is really hard to get back to doing it manually.
About Image/Video generations: Here I believe there is even more to explore and I consider this separate from LLMs in the context of AI winters/bubbles. Especially regarding the video generation part.
I am not in the field, but I believe the appeal of being able to create movies without needing xM$ for actors' salaries is huge. And if you can even replace the VFX also with Video Generation then it is a 3 birds with one stone scenario (You pay for AI compute and you replace actors, VFX specialists, and compute costs for render farms).
So, I believe that there is not a scenario in which electricity prices plummet as you describe. Maybe locally around datacenters that were primarily built for LLMs training, but not globally.
2 replies →
No, the infrastructure cost would have been paid already and will be recouped on the remaining consumers.
Increasing demand is the only reason anyone every developed more supply. And the future will obviously need more energy production. Development costs money so consumers will pay for it with higher prices but Norway just got new, large consumer to help foot the bill.
I would not hold my breath, Norway is kinda holding back new supply (wind + solar + nuclear) if you compare it to Finland or Sweden.
In the past few decades, data centers have been placed with latency in mind - ie. Typically you don't want to be more than 1000 miles from users.
However, in the world of AI, latency is already 1 second plus, so the economics change - you do better to build where there is cheap electricity and free cooling.
I forsee Iceland as a good place to invest.
Iceland is a small country, so it'll depend on what power infrastructure is already there, too much power consumption will overload the grid - unless they build new power plants and other infra.
Almost all countries have taxes and regulations on electricity (grid maintenance isn't free!), however at AI datacenter scale it makes sense to build the power plant on the same site as the datacenter, therefore avoiding those electricity taxes.
So wherever you build, you'll most likely be building the same wattage of power station as you do datacenter.
Lots of other resources can be shared too - for example shared cooling systems
Power is why you would build in Iceland. There is a lot of geothermic potential there. It's after all, the land of hot springs and volcanoes. So if you need more power, build a new geothermic power plant.
Historically they had so much "cheap" energy that they built aluminium smelting plants.
That's why places like Norway, Iceland, and even parts of Canada are starting to look like prime real estate
Bits of Russia too, if you can smuggle the requests and responses in and out.
Remember Russia has huge quantities of free gas which used to be sold to the EU but is right now wasted.
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If this doesn't require chevrons to lock and connect to remote gate through a wormhole, they can't call it Stargate. That's just lying otherwise
I would also accept an obelisk orbiting Jupiter
Yeah a stargate must be something that gives the humanity new superpowers, like exploring other planets in distant parts of the galaxy, not yet another AI slop factory.
I do not understand why they chose Norway. I would choose a country where it is easy to build up a new power plant quickly with solar and wind, close to the site of the data center. Maybe they just have too much electricity up there that is not needed by the population or existing industry?
A big reason to not do it lower down in europe is also just that it's naturally very cold in northern norway so you already save on energy that would be needed to cool it. Meta has datacenters at around the same latitude but in sweden for the same reason.
I've imagined for a long time that eventually we'll shift the bulk of our heavy computation closer to the poles, and use those data centers to power our society. You either use solar power and shift the computation from north pole to south pole seasonally depending on which place is in eternal sunshine, or, since these places are so far away from major population centers, you could just plop down a bunch of giant nuclear reactors without too much resistance.
You might even be able to sell some of that heat to a local heat network to supply other businesses and homes.
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It'll be a bit less cold in northern norway with this thing - accelerating ice cap melt and sea level rise.
Doomsday cult.
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I understand why they didn’t choose Germany: they didn’t want to buy the GPUs in cash and send the receipts via Fax.
And as a reward you pay one of the highest electricity costs in Europe.
this is so hilariously true
> Maybe they just have too much electricity up there that is not needed by the population or existing industry?
Yes, this is basically the case. It's quite expensive to transfer power across several degrees of latitude, and as a result, the price of power in the south of Norway is sometimes orders of magnitude higher than in the north.
Maybe solar and wind aren't viable as they might seem, and/or, Norway isn't as populous as people would think. Total population is just 5.5m, which is the scale of an average US state or a major city in Asia. Workload would be smaller than typical mental image of "a gigantic AI datacenter that serves everyone in a country".
Northern Norway has lot of cheap and stable hydro capacity. The prices there for baseload power are cheap. Interesting part of that market is that they lack internal north-south transfer capacity. So much that Finland which has relatively more north-south capacity has cheaper electricity at same latitude than in Norway...
Norway has a good amount of power generation, and most notably, excellent hydro storage, meaning it has a good spread of cheaper power, rather than peaks and valleys of high and low cost like the UK has (which has lots of wind, but little storage).
https://euenergy.live
2 €/MWh today
Well, for one they have a lot of money and would be a good customer for a government AI
It could be that solar and wind is not a good way to power the datacenter.
Geothermal is a big deal in Norway as well.
We have about 99% hydro power, Iceland is the geothermal county.
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>230MW
rather small compared to what was advertised previously
>joint venture between Nscale and Aker
which seems to imply it is not The Stargate (Oracle, Softbank, MGX?)
Norwegian news seem to think this is a semiconductor manufacturing plant.
They probably did a direct translation of this:
«Stargate Norway is planned to deliver 230MW of capacity, with ambitions to expand by an additional 290MW. The facility will target to deliver 100,000 NVIDIA GPUs by the end of 2026, with the intention to expand significantly in the years ahead.»
Makes it sound both like a power plant and a semiconductor factory..
Norway's public and largest news network, "NRK," made a straight-up mistake and wrote that it would produce AI chips. They later corrected it. But obviously, the journalist had no idea how big news that would be if Norway were able to host a TSMC-style factory.
They have since corrected it tho: https://www.nrk.no/nordland/aker-har-signert-milliardavtale-...
Wow by “deliver” they mean “slurp up”, no? That’s some enthusiastic greenwashing right there!
lloooool
> The facility will target to deliver 100,000 NVIDIA GPUs by the end of 2026, with the intention to expand significantly in the years ahead.
This is massive. As a point of comparison: Denmark just unveiled a new supercomputer recently which has only ~1,500 GPUs [1]
[1] https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/denmarks-first-ai-super...
If those are a100 GPUs, then we are looking at 21.6GWh of electricity in a month at full power at 300W. At 0.16 cents per kW that 3.456M euros per month for the GPUs alone.
According to Wikipedia, in 2021 Norway produced 157.1TWh of electricity, that's 13.1TWh per month. The GPUs will consume less than 1% of the total electricity production capacity Norway has (or had in 2021).
Norway currently uses fully or close to 100% renewables, according to electricitymap. Hopefully this investment won't turn that around.
Norway doesn't want Stargate. Go away
Just bend the knee to your new Goa'uld overlords.
This is being done in partnership with a company called NScale. They once sued a friend of mine over software he wrote, and lost.
I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, but if you’re going to play those kinds of games and still lose, that’s not the kind of partner I’d trust.
I would like to remind everyone that the Stargate Norway project does not, in fact, possess a Stargate.
Some skepticism about the viability of the project here: https://www.wheresyoured.at/power-cut/#butwhat-about-stargat...
I thought it was pretty universally known that the project doesn't have and won't have sufficient funding?
And also that the vast majority of things Sam says are a lie?
I mean, when multiple countries are signing on, I think it’s gonna be fine
> I mean, when multiple countries are signing on, I think it’s gonna be fine
So? They're not paying for it, are they?
From what I can tell in the link I posted (and this could be wrong, so corrections welcome):
1. The project needs ~$100b (although a fraction of that will be sufficient to get the first deployment online)
2. OpenAI and Softbank have each committed ~$18b
3. OpenAI is trying to raise ~$40b to stay in business
4. The majority of that ~$40b is coming from Softbank
5. Softbank has ~$30b cash on hand and is syndicating at least ~$10b in investment for the OpenAI raise.
6. OpenAI has projected a burn rate of ~$40b/year by 2028.
To me it looks like Software is committing $30b to OpenAI + $18b to Stargate. OpenAI, if the raise is successful, will receive $40b over a period of time of which $22b will be available to OpenAI if they make good on their commitment of $18b for Stargate.
Which means that OpenAI needs, in the next few years, $40b/year to run, but will only have $22b after they meet the Stargate commitment in the coming year, leaving them short of operational cash and requiring a further round of investments.
Interesting mix of geopolitics, green energy, and AI arms race vibes here
"Stargate" in the name really sounds like OpenAI has lost touch with reality.
(Didn't they at some point also say they wanted to build their own semiconductor fabs? That went in the same direction).
I think they wanted others to build semiconductor labs for them for free, because... I don't know, "we're OpenAI" or so...
So another major bidder for electricity in my area comes online. Not looking forward to the invoices next winter…
Anyone needing context on this: Norway's electrical infrastructure is almost too good since citizen's prices are set in competition with exporting to the UK, and mainland Europe.
Probably will reap the rewards in about 10 years time once the UK is producing huge amounts of wind and Europe solar, but that's not nuch of a consolation for the minute.
What rewards would north Norway reap when they pay 2 euro/mwh right now?
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Same issue happening in the US right now too. Datacenters are gobbling up electricity and pushing prices ever higher.
Tariffs will make it even worse, with prices the utilities have to pay for infrastructure shooting higher.
I've heard the limiting factor right now for some DCs is the lack of electrical equipment(transformers, cabling, etc).
I just got up here and love that my electricity costs 1/10th what it did in the states.
The AI winter will be extra cold this year.
Great, my electricity bill will be going up. :-(
Personally, as a Norwegian, I am really hopeful for this. I hope the "Not in my backyard" sentiment won't block this project, as it has so many times here. Narvik will be a great place. Lots of renewable energy, a history of industry, and a cool North Atlantic climate for cooling it all.
Though I am starting to recognize in myself that I think AI is so cool, that I might be a bit naive. But I just love it so much, use it so much, and have a childish pleasure in it, that I'm starting to think that I need to curb my enthusiasm.
I do note that the other side of the spectrum has no problem with representation, though. With just as unnuanced attitudes like: AI is evil, useless, capitalistic exploitation, and so on. So the pessistic view is more than enough represented in the public discourse. So maybe I can just let myself be in love with this tech.
Think they stole this one from the anime series Pantheon.
The name is very powerful
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Have we as a species considered that the very last thing we need given our climate crisis and already near-apocalyptic state (fires, floods, storms - it's biblical!), is some risky tech bro vanity project gamble eating up the rest of our resources and accelerating the death of our species?
That maybe the attempt of capital to finally replace pesky labor with cheap machines isn't worth risking it all?
No? Guess it's time to scream into the void some more.
> That maybe the attempt of capital to finally replace pesky labor with cheap machines isn't worth risking it all?
Who's gonna purchase the goods if noone gets a salary? That will work out like the french revolution.
You don't need to tell me, I agree, though I think the Bolshevik revolution is a more likely model.
Capital was never known for its foresight. The planning horizon is quarterly results