Comment by oellegaard
2 days ago
It’s crazy that this still happens in the US.
Tipping is a thing of the past. Pay for your meal and have the restaurant pay their people for their work. End of story.
2 days ago
It’s crazy that this still happens in the US.
Tipping is a thing of the past. Pay for your meal and have the restaurant pay their people for their work. End of story.
The crazier part is that it's spreading to more industries and more countries thanks to Americans thinking they should tip everyone everywhere. Thanks.
My take is that it is spreading not due to culture, but due to how all new point of sale systems / card terminals come with a "tip" feature implemented.
I'm from Europe, and have traveled here extensively. Tipping is pretty rare, but for the past maybe 5 years, almost all new payment terminals have the tipping option.
If the EU can force every person on earth to dismiss a cookie popup on every website they visit, surely they can pass some regulation to rein in the expansion of tipping.
For example, just make it a requirement that the default tip is 0% in point of sale systems.
This is absolutely true, but that is exactly how culture spreads now. Through products/software/media.
American business software, American movies, American YouTube channels. They will inject American problems and solutions into your country, like it or not.
Microsoft may treat your privacy slightly better because of the GDPR, but those invasive systems are still there, toggled off. Waiting for Microsofts lobbying to chip away at the privacy laws until they can turn them on.
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No, it's spreading because corporations are waking up to what an insanely good deal "pay my employees for me" is.
In my state an employer is only responsible for raising an employee's effective wage (for the entire pay period) to minimum wage if the tips don't.
You can tip someone working as a waiter $100 and unless they've already hit minimum wage for that pay period, all you're doing is handing $100 to the owner because it's $100 they don't have to pay in wages. Once the waiter has met minimum wage, then the money actually goes to them.
In a sense this policy has kind of saved me money, because I have simply been avoiding restaurants that expect me to tip and cook at home more often.
I hate pretty much everything about tipping. The onus shouldn’t be on some fucking customer to determine if a server makes rent this month.
I really hate that pretty much every payment terminal asks for a tip now.
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In California we've set the tipped minimum wage to the same as the non-tipped minimum wage (so employers have to pay their employees the same regular minimum wage regardless of whether or not it's a tipped job). Unfortunately, that hasn't fixed the tipping problem.
Of course, a living wage in California is quite a bit higher then even our above-average minimum wage, so that's a big part of it.
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my wife worked under this regime of we-pay-below-minimum and you make it up with tips, when she was a student. it’s illegal in multiple states. including the state where it was done to her. but if you need that sort of job you’re typically probably not in a position to go after your employer…
I'm guessing this barely applies in practice, since only 1% of hourly employees make minimum wage. A tipped employee who doesn't reach minimum wage is probably getting fired regardless.
And yet tipped servers often earn more that the cooks who make the food.
Because they know they can get away with it.
It is also not "tip" anymore, it is just "whatever pays the most" gets the service. It is just to maximise profit out of suckers, something US have perfected (from insurance to fast passes).
Living in Ireland from 2013-2023 I saw tipping get _much_ more common, sadly.
I don't mind tipping for exceptional service, I do however have a major issue with the obligation of tipping. It really should not be on the customers to pay the employees salaries directly.
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This is why power/hegemony are good. This is what Euros get for their lazy, easy lives of "work to live" and siestas. You don't get to have your own culture anymore. Start working hard or continue to fade into obscurity.
Yep. It's wonderful throwing a few extra bucks to some euro waiter and watching them treat you better than everyone else.
> "treat you better than everyone else."
People say this, but what is better service?
It's not like you get better or more food, or get the food faster since all that depends on the kitchen that isn't getting tipped directly.
It's pretty much them coming to your table to take your order. I'd much rather have a free burger or drink (the equivalent of what I could get instead of tipping) with the slow service than get my water refilled every 5 minutes.
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When they treat you better? In the last 2 minutes after you payed just before you leave?
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In my experience they are often confused and sometimes insulted. Generally I found tipping to add friction to the transaction.
When I visited the US I’ve noticed some waiters would treat you worse or just ignore if they found out you were a tourist, so when I could I would order something small and pay right away with tip, just to get basic service. So your comment makes 0 sense.
That feels disturbingly like a lite version of paying someone to be your friend. Maybe we should just all treat each other well (in both directions) and not reduce manners and social graces to a financial transaction.
I'm curious whether you have ever worked in the service industry?
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I think most of the time this happens, you just don't realise the wait staff is patronising you. You certainly aren't buying better service.
That sounds a lot like bribing
What's crazy is that you can so confidently claim "tipping is a thing of the past" when it's... not? You can think tipping should go away, that's a completely valid viewpoint. But your statement is just objectively wrong.
I see this a lot (not specific to HN) - some person doesn't like $THING, so they just declare that that thing is bad, or "a thing of the past," or whatever.
Saying something is a “thing of the past” is the same as saying that something is archaic and should go away. It’s not a declaration of fact.
Not distinguishing between "is" and "should be" explains a lot about why programmer types have trouble with requirements. :D
We should be held to higher standards with our discourse than this.
Or confidently declaring the _true_ motivations of companies/people, like they, the random internet person, for sure know why some company or a famous person are doing something, and express it as a statement of fact and an agreed upon common sense and not a speculation based on nothing.
Most seen on reddit but seems to be becoming commonplace on here as well.
"Horse riding is a thing of the past" is both clearly true and also wrong if you are being incredibly obtuse. The average person is not riding a horse, but there are still horse riders.
I see this a lot - some person doesn't like a phrase ("a thing of the past"), so they just misread it and take it clearly the wrong way.
Even among the incredibly predictable "omg USA so backward tipping lol" comments here, there are a lot admitting that tipping still exists for exceptional service in certain industries.
You won't find a single non-barista in the US who thinks it's reasonable for Starbucks to solicit 20% for someone pouring your coffee into a cup. But restaurants have tried the "don't tip our waiters" thing in the US and it doesn't work.
There’s very little empirical evidence correlating tipping with better service.
There is evidence correlating being attractive to getting better tips, interestingly.
Yep, its called the Beauty Premium. There's evidence that being attractive leads to better job outcomes in most industries including higher starting salaries, more job offers, faster promotions, and better performance evaluations.
100% this! I hate how the main narrative it seems like Americans believe about tipping, especially among a certain set of privileged college-educated Democrat types, is that tipping is this virtuous practice that benefits the underclass so much, when really, it benefits restaurant owners most, and if any workers are better off under a tipping system, it's a small minority, like highly attractive white female servers in establishments that have rich clientele. Everyone else would be better off if prices (not a surcharge) went up once by 20% and restaurants spent that money on wages and abolished all tipping.
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And evidence correlating being a minority with lower tips.
Anecdata, but I go to Taco Bell way more often than I should. There’s no tipping culture at Taco Bell, but the staff, at least at the one near my house, are always very nice to me and as far as I can tell my food is made with a sufficient amount of care.
When I do go to a restaurant that has tipping, people are usually nice to me as well, but I don’t feel like they’re really any nicer or better at their job than my local Taco Bell workers.
No, they're definitely more attentive for the tip, I just don't like it. If they're going to be extra nice, I don't want it to be for money. Felt nice going to other countries like Australia where the customer isn't always right but they still do their jobs.
Bud, literally nobody gives a shit about waiting on you. They are literally only doing it for the money.
People in Australia are still doing it for the money, even if you don't realize it.
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Anyone who has worked in a restaurant or bar can provide plenty of observational data that if you provide better service you will be tipped better. I would recommend trying out working as a server/bartender you will understand tipping a lot better.
Why should we tip restaurant workers but not janitors or phone customer service reps? Why are they better than other types of service workers?
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There is definitely a huge difference in countries where they tip and countries where they don't tip.
Coming from a country with no tipping at all, it was somewhat creepy how the people expecting tips acted when I visited the US for the first time. You can tell when friendliness is fake/forced, and living in a country without tipping you don't see it nearly as much. I felt a bit uncomfortable.
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Yeah, the huge difference is that in the US waiters or even managers might confront you if you choose to not tip.
There’s tipping everywhere (more or less, there are some exceptions). But there’s just one country that I know of where 15% is ”no tip” because it’s the expected baseline, and 25% is a small tip because it’s 5-10% over the expected minimum so the actual ”tip” part of a 25% tip is actually less.
I tip 0-10% where I live. Just like most Americans tip 15-25% but the first 15 are just eaten by expectation. There is zero difference except that 1) my menu shows actual prices 2) wait staff have a living wage regardless of tips or how busy the restaurant was that day.
What do you mean? Service is usually far better in Asia than in Western countries and there's no tipping.
I've been to both, a lot, and I've not noticed any difference whatsoever. Good service is the norm everywhere, honestly, and the odd instance of bad service happens everywhere too.
Beyond that, I personally find that leveraging someone's economic desperation to coerce deference out of them is disgusting. Give me staff who have the option to walk out without material harm, and choose not to.
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Also a tip goes to the pretty face who bring you plates.
However, the whole restaurant experience is made by many people: dishwasher boy, prep boy, shef, cleaning lady, etc.
They should tip to cleaning lady as dirty toilet can ruin whole "experience".
In many restaurants the tip is split between all of those people. You just don't know it because they don't exactly post their tip policy.
I've heard about shared tips between people who work around the tables, but not with dishwasher/cleaner.
> Tipping is a thing of the past.
This statement is just not factual without some qualification. Where I live, and in the US in general, tipping is not a thing of the past. You can say you wish it was, you can say it should be, but what you said is not factual.
Tipping is a thing in Eastern (to be more accurate: Central) Europe too, but where I live, tipping is not taxed. Actually, let me be more accurate: people who pay with credit card always tip in cash, as there is no way to tip with a credit card[1]. :P If you buy anything with a credit card, the total amount must always be identical to the sum of the prices of the products, it can never be more, so cannot include tips[1], which forces people who tip to tip with cash.
Food deliveries (similar to Uber Eats in the US I suppose) have the option to tip, and 100% goes to the courier. 200 HUF (0.57 USD) is the most common amount (as per their website[2]). We do not use percentages.
[1] It varies and might not be universal.
[2] https://foodora.hu
"Cash is untaxed" is a universal rule; there's a food stall that only sells deep fried Vietnamese eggrolls (and has for decades), they prefer cash; in part because cash is untaxed and they may forget to document every sale on occasion, but also because they do relatively low amount transactions (<€10), the €0.25 transaction fee does add up for them.
It's also why "knowing a guy" can be useful, tradesmen coming in on their off hours to do a job for cash.
In my country (euro-land), transaction fees are often brought up by shopkeepers as a bogus excuse, but in real life banks offer plenty of percentage-only plans without fixed transaction fees.
Yeah, "knowing a guy" is very common here, as in, hey, I know a plumber, I know an electrician, I know a painter, and this and that. It is always cash with them, of course.
>>Actually, let me be more accurate: people who pay with credit card always tip in cash, as there is no way to tip with a credit card.
Eh? I don't know if you consider Poland eastern europe(I don't really), but I tip with a card all the time in Poland, you just ask "hey can I leave a tip on the card" and they bump up the amount by whatever you want to tip. And no, the amount doesn't then equal what's on the receipt - I don't know how they work it out internally, but frankly that's not my problem.
I tried tipping with card, and they told me that they can't "bump it up" (as in, they will get in trouble if they do). I suppose it depends on the place. I know for a fact that you can't tip with a credit card for parcel couriers. What I do not know for a fact is restaurants. So I suppose it varies. You tip doctors with cash, too. It is illegal to do so, but people do it and doctors expect it, it is just done more discretely.
I was not referring to Poland, but Hungary. What gave you the idea that I was referring to Poland? :P FWIW, I do speak Polish though, and I have many Polish friends.
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I agree with your post. But..
I'm from the UK and travel in the US a lot and US service is much better. I've never had to chase up the check or had to go and search for staff to serve me after sitting there for ten minutes. These are common occurrences in the UK for me.
Ideally, tipping wouldn't exist and everything would be priced in, but pragmatically, incentives grant extra benefits to both parties. Potential for more money for the server, better service (and the ability to punish bad service) for the customer.
(I know everyone making similar observations is getting voted down, so I appreciate I may simply be far off the bell curve on this and the majority experience the total opposite. But it's my reality.)
> I'm from the UK and travel in the US a lot and US service is much better. I've never had to chase up the check or had to go and search for staff to serve me after sitting there for ten minutes. These are common occurrences in the UK for me.
I've had these things in the US. In fact the service generally I've had is all for show, people being really "fake nice" and / or overbearing but then forgetting drinks or food items you ordered.
At least in the UK you can genuinely not tip someone without worrying about them being unable make rent..
But people do tip at restaurants in the UK. So what are you saying is the difference?
Some people do, but it's not necessary. I rarely tip, and if I do, it won't be the 20% that is customary in the US.
I’ve had fantastic service in countries where tipping is not the norm. I’ve had atrocious service in the US. UK service may be worse, but I doubt tipping is the reason for it.
Good service is common in industries where tipping doesn’t happen. What makes restaurants special that their workers can’t provide good service if all of their pay comes from their employer just like everyone else’s?
The Taco Johns near where I work has a tip jar outside the drive-thru window.
I don't know of any other fast food place that does that.
In my experience as a former enjoyer, Taco John's needs all the help they can get =P
That's why I never tip. Otherwise you're giving the perfect excuse to restaurant owners to lower wages.
- have a liveable minimum wage - force restaurant owners to pay at least that
period
If you’re in the US and refuse to tip, you should consider only eating out at places that pay more than the tipped minimum wage (in many states still $2.13 an hour). If you’re going to protest with your wallet, hurt the owners and not the staff.
> and have the restaurant pay their people for their work.
For that, you need the restaurant employees to be organized in a strong, independent, non-corrupt union; or a highly-upstanding restaurant owner/manager.
The latter is sometimes the case, but often/usually - not.
So, former is rarely the case, I'm afraid, because working-class consciousness in many countries is lacking; and forming a union is hard; and restaurant staff have a lot of churn, so by the time you get the idea to do this, or have started work on it, you might be going elsewhere.
But regular restaurant clients taking owners to task about wages is definitely a thing to consider...
“Tipping is a thing of the past” is just a completely false statement, given it’s the norm in the most economically powerful country in the world and not at all u heard of elsewhere (food delivery in many countries, high end restaurants in the UK and elsewhere, etc.) If we’re being generous we can call the claim is vs. ought distinction, except the phrasing doesn’t even leave room for the ought interpretation. It’s just a falsehood (were it was true).
> Pay for your meal
Not sure you know what tipping is, but it's not paying for the meal. It's paying for the service.
1. I like being able to pay for better service
2. Despite what people like to think, everywhere in the world has appreciated tips. I've never had a waiter refuse extra money. Literally dozens of countries, you get better service if you tip.
Not sure you know, but in literally dozens of countries, waiters get a proper salary.
I have interns with higher salaries and more purchasing power than senior devs in Europe.
It's remarkable what little you consider "proper".
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Having a proper salary doesn't mean they would not appreciate getting even more money.
The cost of a ”meal” in a restaurant is: rent, wages (for chefs, managers, wait staff, etc) ingredients, profit margin, taxes and likely a dozen other things.
Taking one of these items out of the cost and trying to charge it separately is a strange practice.
Japanese waiters will literally refuse your money of your try to tip. It's literally insulting to them if you offer more than asked for
Nope: https://www.reddit.com/r/JapanTravelTips/comments/1cyj0nu/ti...
The tip is usually given at the end of the service. How does that ensure a better experience during?
They see I'm American and thus have more purchasing power than locals. They want some of that sweet sweet money, so they treat you better.
You're asking how a tip can influence a server, if they don't know it's coming. But in America they do know it's coming, at least, there is a cultural norm of tipping being expected. So it makes sense that a server would do what it takes, to make sure that it happens.
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There are 3 types of countries x industries (because even within a country different cultures may apply)
1. Places where service workers are paid peanuts or nothing and tipping is considered mandatory
2. Places where workers get a basic actual salary and tipping is rather voluntary (and can be more or less expected)
3. Places where tipping is not an actual practice and can make things awkward even, depending the amount.
In reality, 2 is a spectrum between 1 and 3.
Not sure where you have (or haven't been), but I've been to several countries where I've tried to tip, and it's confused or even embarrassed the staff. They insisted I take my change. Granted, this was 15-20 years ago, and unfortunately tipping has become more pervasive, not less, so maybe if I were to revisit those places, things would be different.
But I do know this is still the case in Japan. Some Japanese service workers or small business owners will even be insulted if you try to tip.
> But I do know this is still the case in Japan. Some Japanese service workers or small business owners will even be insulted if you try to tip.
It's absolutely not. Have you actually been there, or are you repeating things?
https://www.reddit.com/r/JapanTravelTips/comments/1cyj0nu/ti...
Having just come back to the States from a trip to Europe — sheesh, I hope not. The service at restaurants everywhere in Europe was at best mediocre, and typically god-awful. Incentivizing good service is good.
Yes, yes, "but the price on the menu says..." Whatever. If you're in the U.S., it's normalized that the price you actually pay is 20% higher, assuming they treat you well. Restaurants don't typically print the tax on their menus either, and yet no one tears their hair out over having to pay sales tax, and various city taxes, etc etc.
The service is so, so much better in the U.S. because of tipping. Tipping culture is good.
Maybe you went to mediocre restaurants?
Tipping sucks and your taxes suck too. When I see that something costs 15€ on the menu then I expect to pay 15€ and nothing more. How can you be happy about surprise taxes? How can you plan your spending when you don't see how much something costs and you still think this is superior?
I dunno, I was in Europe (Belgium and France) last summer, and I thought the service was generally excellent. A bit slower in France, perhaps, than in the US, but I chalked that up to people just generally not being in as much of a hurry as they can be in the US. (And hell, there are plenty of places in the US where service is slower than I'd like.)
We tend to avoid touristy areas, though, when we travel, so maybe that explains the better service. If I had to work in a service job that caters to tourists, I'd probably be less happy too.
Having been to Europe multiple times, hard disagree. I don't know why you had bad experiences everywhere, but I have hardly had any.
I'd expect all prices to include taxes, be it restaurants or other shops. Everything else is just making it harder for the customer for no reason at all. What you see is what you pay.
Service is quite good in Europe if you ignore the touristy areas. We’re also not into that fake-smiling thing, so maybe that can be seen by an American as “bad service”.
I don't care about smiling. I care that when I want to leave, I can pay quickly. In Europe, it's incredibly slow, pretty much everywhere, including random rural towns in the middle of nowhere, including for random other patrons who are locals. The best service I ever witnessed in Europe was like, maybe mid-tier American fast casual level: aka, mediocre.
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On the other hand, when I visited US on a work trip we've had an absolutely awful service at a restaurant, like the waiter was genuienly rude to us, and at the end I said ok, well, this was awful, I guess we're not leaving a tip then - and our American host laughed and said no, you still have to leave a tip. Why? Because it would be rude not to. And these people earn very little so you have to leave a tip. But.....the service was bad? Why would we tip? "because you have to".
That's nonsense. In the UK if the service is good I leave a tip. If it isn't then I don't. From my (limited) experience in the US it looks like you have to tip regardless. If that's the tipping culture then that culture is rotten.
>>The service is so, so much better in the U.S. because of tipping.
Honest question - do you consider waiters who ask you if you need anything every 2 minutes "good"?
>> The service at restaurants everywhere in Europe was at best mediocre
What's your opinion on restaurants in Poland? Was the service better or worse than in Spain? How was it compared to Czechia and Slovakia?
Not my experience.
I've got great and shit service in Europe.
I've got great and shit service in the US.
Tip/no-tip hasn't been a factor.