They'd rather that than an empty seat, especially if that person is turning up 5-6 days/week.
Most coffee shops where I live (London, UK, specifically out in West London) are at best 20% full through most of the day, that's a lot of dead real estate not paying for itself.
When I tried working out of coffee shops a bit some years ago the "etiquette" seemed to be ~1 drink/hour to pay for your seat. I don't like coffee that much, so was consuming more like 0.66/hour (i.e. around 2 drinks every 3 hours), and people were fine with that, as it was effectively a rent payment of £20/day, or £100/week, which is a little under what a hotdesk would cost me in the same area but with a lot more flexibility (never pay for idle!), and of course its good margin sales for them.
Of course, they could just say "no laptops". There's a pub chain in the UK that did that (Sam Smith's - no screens, no swearing), but the rule is not widely followed or enforced and where it is the pubs are empty far more than the ones that welcome customers.
Japanese Manga Cafes / Internet Cafes give you all you can drink coffee and tea for hourly pricing, and usually comes with a PC and a private booth. I'm not sure how much of a thing they still are though, but they were big in the 2000s and early 10s
Having lived in Korea, I have always enjoyed the cafe culture. Starbucks there is known for accepting you to work there. Although I haven't seen anyone bring a printer yet, some do bring extra stuff such as a stand for their laptop that take up a lot of space.
The only thing this article mentions is that Starbucks prohibits people of bringing stuff that would take up more than a single seat, which seems reasonable?
South Korea is cyber café country. If you open a café there, people expect some specific services.
I guess the fact people come with PCs and printer is a way to demonstrate how they don't want this part of US culture and would like to keep theirs. So either adapt and start offering PC bang in South Korea or go home.
Or you know, you could just not go there if you don't like the place rather than be a prick to people who work there and customers who like going there.
It's hard to run a global business. Different people have such different ways of doing things. Every day, tens of millions of people run pen tests on Starbuck's rules. And Starbuck's front line of defence? A bunch of shy college student baristas.
What makes you think they’re desperate? IME people from Asian cultures sometimes have ways of thinking that strike at least me personally as basically alien. And then my brain interpolates their motives wrong based on biases that are shaped by western versions of politeness etc.
In Tokyo, coffee shops seem to have embraced the work culture. Tables and seating have been adapted to working, and you often get a receipt with the time when you are expected to leave printed on it. Most (if not all) people in a Tully's in Tokyo are there to work.
I thought about Improv Everywhere recently - they had some great things in the early 2000s.
Re watching this, at about 1:16 one of the agents looks familiar. "Huh, she looks kinda like Aubrey Plaza". Then the credits come on: It was actually Aubrey Plaza.
The solution is to bring back cybercafes, or cafes which were set up up to go online. Such culture existed in the 90s but was then ended by the widespread online accessibility by home ADSL and later mobile internet.
The 'problem' with those for remote workers is that you pay per minute/hour in a cybercafe - in a normal coffee shop you can just nurse one coffee for hours and pay a single low cost (and get a coffee).
I can't remember the name of it now but back in 2010s there was an 'OK' managed drop-in office space you could rent for £10 a day in central London - which came with free coffee and printing - I haven't looked at the prices lately.
Wow, I'd be curious about the details if you can remember.
I was working from cafes in London at that time, and I would have loved to find a place like that. I had to either use actual cafes (free besides getting a coffee and maybe a sandwich, limited privacy and security) or pay for a dedicated space, generally with too much tedious bureaucracy. Maybe I misremember, but to get prices as low as £10/day I think you had to commit to a large number of days per month. I don't recall anyone offering low prices a la carte.
Cybercafes are already a big thing in SK, but why is the above comment downvoted? I, for one, miss net cafes very much. They used to be big in Greece, and I made many many dear friendships in small, cozy net cafes.
I can recount hilarious and even heartwarming stories; turns out that having a cafe (i.e. leisure space) with computers used by people in close proximity makes for dynamics and interactions that you cannot recreate with remote connections.
Co-working spaces of all types are ubiquitous in Tokyo FWIW. Near my midsize station I had about 10 different providers in a 10 minute walking radius, some with multiple locations even!
Most have a selection of plans to choose from: hourly, daily, monthly, etc
I chose a bit more upscale one without a fixed seat. I pay ¥1100 (7.5 USD) I think for each day I use it, with a monthly minimum spend of ¥2200. It comes with free mediocre coffee/tea. It is consistently clean and library quiet as people follow the posted rules including minding the volume of their typing and headphones.
I would be surprised if the situation in Seoul was significantly different.
There's already a large offering of such spaces in Korea. You have cafes where you can bring your laptop and work in peace, there's pc cafes / pc bangs which are more for gaming but provide a desktop, there are places where you can rent co-working spaces or spaces for co-working that you can use with a membership.
They actually have exactly that for gaming: a "pc bang" like a internet cafe. I wonder if it has been tried in earnest for co-working. You would think it is an easier business so long as the demand is there.
There's also study cafes, which are aimed more primarily at students but often have working spaces for laptop use. These are quiet spaces to focus compared to something like Starbucks or PC bangs though.
Isn’t that how most coworking spaces work already? I’ve worked from a lot of them, and it always worked like that: I check in when I arrive in the morning, and when I check out at the end of the day, I pay for the number of hours I have spent there (often capped to a maximum of 5 hours or so, even if I stay longer).
Why would anyone except a gamer buy a desktop computer anyway. I guess some people still have their old computer and a lot of south korenas are gamers, but laptops are just better overall because of the portability.
If people bring printerS pural then starbuck could "just" have a free-ish printer
> Why would anyone except a gamer buy a desktop computer anyway?
Because you get a beast of a machine for the price of MacBook Air, and because you prefer looking at a big ultrawide monitor instead of alt-tabbing like crazy on a 13" screen, and you prefer a full keyboard and a proper mouse to the cramped layout they stuff in laptops because there's no room.
Oh, and maybe a proper sound system.
And it can also double as a NAS (more physical space for storage) and home server.
Not everyone needs portability all the time. For when I do, I have a Thinkpad I can get by with, with Tailscale VPN so it has access to the workstation.
(for anyone curios, yes, it's still cheaper than top-of-the-line laptop + nas/home server combo, but my main reason is ergonomics).
Show me that quiet, 16 core, 5 GHz, 128 GB RAM laptop that's actually pretty cheap, too.
I do need the CPU performance, that computer is used to compile C++ code. The RAM is for local LLMs - not fast enough to be practical most of the time tbh, but I like to experiment anyway.
I've had mine about ten years and it's still on the original CPU and mobo and PSU I think. I've probably saved a few hundred bucks from not buying another whole computer. It might not be as fast as a new laptop but it has more RAM and storage than most.
If I want to go into LLM stuff I will buy a newish used GPU for it. If the CPU is a bottleneck then I'll get a new mobo but I won't need a new chassis or PSU maybe ever. And the hard drives just rotate as I buy bigger ones
Anyone who doesn't need to work while traveling actually.
A desktop is both cheaper (at the same spec), while being much more durable due to being upgradable and reparable.
Sure laptop win in terms of portability, but since we can do so much on our phone, I don't really feel the need to bring a computer with me everywhere.
- fake performance (good luck with your 105W "5090")
- OS confusion about active screen, keyboard and mouse (how many times have I experienced that only the built-in keyboard works during booting, or the OS showing the login screen on only the built-in screen),
- most of them have to be open or have ports in awkward places, and take up space comparable to a desktop.
Everyone has different needs. A lot of us get by very nicely with a good laptop and a big monitor (or two). Very few moving parts to keep track of, and you can be productive both home and away.
Or maybe Starbucks should install a common printer with a fee?
The large items policy still makes sense, though
That will ruin them at $1,500 to $2,000 per litre of ink...
They could provide Starbucks branded ink of which 95% of the cost is licensing fees which they pay out tax-free to themselves.
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Maybe they could do some R&D to see if coffee could be used as ink.
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Is that a business they even want, someone occupying a seat for 8 hours only to consume two coffees?
They'd rather that than an empty seat, especially if that person is turning up 5-6 days/week.
Most coffee shops where I live (London, UK, specifically out in West London) are at best 20% full through most of the day, that's a lot of dead real estate not paying for itself.
When I tried working out of coffee shops a bit some years ago the "etiquette" seemed to be ~1 drink/hour to pay for your seat. I don't like coffee that much, so was consuming more like 0.66/hour (i.e. around 2 drinks every 3 hours), and people were fine with that, as it was effectively a rent payment of £20/day, or £100/week, which is a little under what a hotdesk would cost me in the same area but with a lot more flexibility (never pay for idle!), and of course its good margin sales for them.
Of course, they could just say "no laptops". There's a pub chain in the UK that did that (Sam Smith's - no screens, no swearing), but the rule is not widely followed or enforced and where it is the pubs are empty far more than the ones that welcome customers.
Cafes provide two distinct products, usually bundled into one: seat rental and food/drink.
How about charge separately for each? I get that it would be awkward to try, but why not.
Japanese Manga Cafes / Internet Cafes give you all you can drink coffee and tea for hourly pricing, and usually comes with a PC and a private booth. I'm not sure how much of a thing they still are though, but they were big in the 2000s and early 10s
This is what we had all over the world (...) when Internet Cafes were a thing. Perhaps they should come back?
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Newer Coworking places generally seem to have some Starbucks-vibes, but AFAIK they are not doing to well.
Maybe the price of a coffee is exactly what people are willing to pay for a seat, a small table, and wifi for some hours.
Having lived in Korea, I have always enjoyed the cafe culture. Starbucks there is known for accepting you to work there. Although I haven't seen anyone bring a printer yet, some do bring extra stuff such as a stand for their laptop that take up a lot of space.
The only thing this article mentions is that Starbucks prohibits people of bringing stuff that would take up more than a single seat, which seems reasonable?
I used to travel with a Canon PIXMA printer. Quite portable. Could carry a laptop and printer in a small backpack. The paper was heavy, though.
I saw a guy (in america) charge his e-bike battery once at Starbucks. GPT estimates a full recharge to be around 30 cents.
People bring printers to Starbucks… really ? I’m kind of surprised it feels like an abuse to me o_O it would never cross my mind
There needs to be a resurrection of the Canon NoteJet laptops.
Ooh, yes I want one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_NoteJet
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South Korea is cyber café country. If you open a café there, people expect some specific services.
I guess the fact people come with PCs and printer is a way to demonstrate how they don't want this part of US culture and would like to keep theirs. So either adapt and start offering PC bang in South Korea or go home.
Or you know, you could just not go there if you don't like the place rather than be a prick to people who work there and customers who like going there.
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It's hard to run a global business. Different people have such different ways of doing things. Every day, tens of millions of people run pen tests on Starbuck's rules. And Starbuck's front line of defence? A bunch of shy college student baristas.
Most of those people arent in college, especially outside the US.
I feel genuinely sad for anyone who's in such a desperate spot that they're doing this
What makes you think they’re desperate? IME people from Asian cultures sometimes have ways of thinking that strike at least me personally as basically alien. And then my brain interpolates their motives wrong based on biases that are shaped by western versions of politeness etc.
In Tokyo, coffee shops seem to have embraced the work culture. Tables and seating have been adapted to working, and you often get a receipt with the time when you are expected to leave printed on it. Most (if not all) people in a Tully's in Tokyo are there to work.
Reminds me of the Improv Everywhere sketch where they did this exact thing.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=EKEeHREK2nQ
I thought about Improv Everywhere recently - they had some great things in the early 2000s.
Re watching this, at about 1:16 one of the agents looks familiar. "Huh, she looks kinda like Aubrey Plaza". Then the credits come on: It was actually Aubrey Plaza.
I thought that too!
17 years ago - wow!
The solution is to bring back cybercafes, or cafes which were set up up to go online. Such culture existed in the 90s but was then ended by the widespread online accessibility by home ADSL and later mobile internet.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/worlds-first-ever-cyber-cafe...
The 'problem' with those for remote workers is that you pay per minute/hour in a cybercafe - in a normal coffee shop you can just nurse one coffee for hours and pay a single low cost (and get a coffee).
I can't remember the name of it now but back in 2010s there was an 'OK' managed drop-in office space you could rent for £10 a day in central London - which came with free coffee and printing - I haven't looked at the prices lately.
Wow, I'd be curious about the details if you can remember.
I was working from cafes in London at that time, and I would have loved to find a place like that. I had to either use actual cafes (free besides getting a coffee and maybe a sandwich, limited privacy and security) or pay for a dedicated space, generally with too much tedious bureaucracy. Maybe I misremember, but to get prices as low as £10/day I think you had to commit to a large number of days per month. I don't recall anyone offering low prices a la carte.
South Korea has many pc cafes, so called pc bangs / pc방, and there are also many study cafes where you can work for long periods.
Cybercafes are already a big thing in SK, but why is the above comment downvoted? I, for one, miss net cafes very much. They used to be big in Greece, and I made many many dear friendships in small, cozy net cafes.
I can recount hilarious and even heartwarming stories; turns out that having a cafe (i.e. leisure space) with computers used by people in close proximity makes for dynamics and interactions that you cannot recreate with remote connections.
Seems like an opportunity for a coworking-lite space -- rent a seat/desk spot for 1 hour blocks.
Co-working spaces of all types are ubiquitous in Tokyo FWIW. Near my midsize station I had about 10 different providers in a 10 minute walking radius, some with multiple locations even!
Most have a selection of plans to choose from: hourly, daily, monthly, etc
I chose a bit more upscale one without a fixed seat. I pay ¥1100 (7.5 USD) I think for each day I use it, with a monthly minimum spend of ¥2200. It comes with free mediocre coffee/tea. It is consistently clean and library quiet as people follow the posted rules including minding the volume of their typing and headphones.
I would be surprised if the situation in Seoul was significantly different.
There's already a large offering of such spaces in Korea. You have cafes where you can bring your laptop and work in peace, there's pc cafes / pc bangs which are more for gaming but provide a desktop, there are places where you can rent co-working spaces or spaces for co-working that you can use with a membership.
They actually have exactly that for gaming: a "pc bang" like a internet cafe. I wonder if it has been tried in earnest for co-working. You would think it is an easier business so long as the demand is there.
There's also study cafes, which are aimed more primarily at students but often have working spaces for laptop use. These are quiet spaces to focus compared to something like Starbucks or PC bangs though.
What a novel concept!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC_bang
I somehow doubt that people are lugging a desktop and printer around the city, only to set it up and work for 1 hour in Starbucks.
Isn’t that how most coworking spaces work already? I’ve worked from a lot of them, and it always worked like that: I check in when I arrive in the morning, and when I check out at the end of the day, I pay for the number of hours I have spent there (often capped to a maximum of 5 hours or so, even if I stay longer).
With starbucks delivery, starbucks printing, etc.
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Why would anyone except a gamer buy a desktop computer anyway. I guess some people still have their old computer and a lot of south korenas are gamers, but laptops are just better overall because of the portability. If people bring printerS pural then starbuck could "just" have a free-ish printer
> Why would anyone except a gamer buy a desktop computer anyway?
Because you get a beast of a machine for the price of MacBook Air, and because you prefer looking at a big ultrawide monitor instead of alt-tabbing like crazy on a 13" screen, and you prefer a full keyboard and a proper mouse to the cramped layout they stuff in laptops because there's no room.
Oh, and maybe a proper sound system.
And it can also double as a NAS (more physical space for storage) and home server.
Not everyone needs portability all the time. For when I do, I have a Thinkpad I can get by with, with Tailscale VPN so it has access to the workstation.
(for anyone curios, yes, it's still cheaper than top-of-the-line laptop + nas/home server combo, but my main reason is ergonomics).
External monitor, keyboard, mouse, sound, stuck in closet and used as a NAS... I do all these with laptops just as much as with desktops.
Laptop price disadvantage can even flip when buying used due to cheaper shipping.
Laptops can't hold as many internal devices nor the fastest parts and have worse thermals/sound though.
> it can also double as a NAS ... and home server
Devil's advocate, but it can't if it's in Starbucks ;)
There's far cheaper workstations out there than Macbooks, especially if you're running Linux on them.
Show me that quiet, 16 core, 5 GHz, 128 GB RAM laptop that's actually pretty cheap, too.
I do need the CPU performance, that computer is used to compile C++ code. The RAM is for local LLMs - not fast enough to be practical most of the time tbh, but I like to experiment anyway.
Keep that beast humming at home and get a cheap MacBook Air to use ssh at the coffee shop.
They used to be cheaper. Might still be?
I've had mine about ten years and it's still on the original CPU and mobo and PSU I think. I've probably saved a few hundred bucks from not buying another whole computer. It might not be as fast as a new laptop but it has more RAM and storage than most.
If I want to go into LLM stuff I will buy a newish used GPU for it. If the CPU is a bottleneck then I'll get a new mobo but I won't need a new chassis or PSU maybe ever. And the hard drives just rotate as I buy bigger ones
Anyone who doesn't need to work while traveling actually.
A desktop is both cheaper (at the same spec), while being much more durable due to being upgradable and reparable.
Sure laptop win in terms of portability, but since we can do so much on our phone, I don't really feel the need to bring a computer with me everywhere.
Laptops are terrible -
- Too small
- too loud
- too hot
- too few ports
- fake performance (good luck with your 105W "5090")
- OS confusion about active screen, keyboard and mouse (how many times have I experienced that only the built-in keyboard works during booting, or the OS showing the login screen on only the built-in screen),
- most of them have to be open or have ports in awkward places, and take up space comparable to a desktop.
Everyone has different needs. A lot of us get by very nicely with a good laptop and a big monitor (or two). Very few moving parts to keep track of, and you can be productive both home and away.