Comment by pdonis
3 days ago
> While we try to make things accessible to the public, the determination of what is "good" is ultimately made by experts.
No, it isn't. It's determined by whether the models make accurate predictions. The fact that in our society, science is viewed as an authority, where Scientists can pontificate as "experts" without having to back up their claims with a predictive track record, is a bug, not a feature.
> "The public" has a level of science literacy that is somewhat medieval
The public doesn't care about "science literacy" in terms of understanding the models. Nor does the public have to. If the models make good predictions, that will be obvious to the public if it's something the public cares about.
A good example is GPS. "The public" has no clue how GPS actually works, and doesn't understand all the nuances that had to be carefully considered in order to get it to work as accurately and reliably as it does. Building and maintaining the system requires experts, yes. But knowing that GPS works is simple: does your smartphone show you where you are accurately? The fact that it does is strong evidence that GPS works, since GPS is what your smartphone uses to do that. (Yes, I know there are other things involved as well, like your smartphone having access to accurate maps. Your smartphone being able to tell you accurately where you are is also strong evidence that the people who produced those maps were doing it right.) And "the public" can make this simple observation without having to know anything about the details of how GPS does what it does.
> it's not reasonable to expect Joe Schmoe to be able to track the latest experimental results from CERN.
Nor does Joe Schmoe have to. Joe Schmoe doesn't care. The cutting edge physics experiments being done at CERN have no practical impact on anything in anyone's daily life, unless you're one of the people who has to analyze the data.
But if you come and tell Joe Schmoe that hey, this new discovery they just made at CERN means everyone has to suddenly turn their entire lives upside down, then Joe Schmoe is going to want to see the predictive track record that backs that up. And it better be a strong track record, of predictions that affect people's daily lives, not just what tracks are going to be observed in CERN's detectors.
Here's another example: prediction of possible impacts on Earth by comets and asteroids. Astronomers have an extensive track record of being able to predict, years in advance, the trajectories of such objects, with an accuracy much smaller than one Earth radius--i.e., accurately enough to be able to distinguish an actual impact from a close approach. So if astronomers ever come out in public and say, we're tracking this comet and it's going to hit the Earth 29 years, 3 months, and 7 days from now, and here's the region where it's going to hit, and we'd better start planning to either alter its trajectory or set ourselves up to withstand the hit, yes, they can make that claim credibly because of their track record. But most public claims by scientists, even "experts", don't achieve that high bar--and that means the public is perfectly justified in just ignoring them.
> It's determined by whether the models make accurate predictions.
And it's experts who speak the language well enough to understand what is being said. Fortunately, it's not a priesthood that is linked to your family or a caste or some wildly selective process. All you have to do is spend a few years studying (2-6 depending on the particularities). You can learn the language and basically that makes you an expert too.
What society do you live in where scientists' expertise is taken on face value and acted on without substantial pushback and criticism? I'd like to live there, maybe.
> means everyone has to suddenly turn their entire lives upside down
This happened. Starting over a century ago, and continuing ever since with increasing loudness, urgency, and accuracy. And yet. The US is making it harder to build solar and wind power.
> it's experts who speak the language well enough to understand what is being said.
What's so hard to understand about "does your smartphone show you where you are accurately"?
> What society do you live in where scientists' expertise is taken on face value and acted on without substantial pushback and criticism?
Um, planet Earth? What you describe is exactly what happened during Covid, for example.
> This happened. Starting over a century ago, and continuing ever since with increasing loudness, urgency, and accuracy.
What are you talking about?
If you're talking about the discovery of relativity and quantum mechanics, those didn't turn people's lives upside down. Various technologies based on QM eventually did affect people's lives significantly, though I wouldn't say they've turned them upside down, but in any case that had nothing to do with scientists making predictions about them. GPS is the first technology based on relativity that has significantly affected people's lives, but again I wouldn't say it's turned lives upside down.
What has turned people's lives upside down is, for example, the scientific pronouncements about Covid that led to governments imposing lockdowns that did nothing to stop the spread of Covid, but took away countless people's livelihoods.
Some answers are more subtle than a smartphone map.
My man, what on earth are you talking about w.r.t. Covid? There was substantial pushback. From early days. People ate horse paste. Entire states tried their best to let it rip. Even now wearing a mask has become political signaling, and vaccines are being targeted by the US executive.
I was talking about the link between carbon emissions and climate. I thought I'd do you the courtesy of a direct example that does ask people to fundamentally change their lives.
And I fear you've built a sizeable and unfortunate filter bubble for yourself. America had mild inconveniences, but we never had lockdowns. Nobody was ticketed for walking outside of their house. We closed schools (a good idea, because kids get sick and spread disease), and tried to stop people from gathering indoors unnecessarily (also unsuccessfully, mind you).
The US also fared terribly as a result of our ineffective and largely unsuccessful policies. It should be still another source of ongoing national shame. We did worse than Sweden, which is humiliating.
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