Comment by pxoe
5 months ago
Mastodon literally has a trending feed. Is that not an "algorithm"? It has algorithmic popular hashtags, news feed, and user recommendations. Just a bog standard handful of algorithmic surfaces, so why are they still pretending like it's "algorithm free" is beyond me. "Absolute lack", right.
The Trending feature is not pushed into the home (or any) timeline. In the Web UI it sits unobtrusively in the corner of the window and on some apps simply does not exist. It can also be easily disabled.
In the discourse about social media, the term "algorithm" is exclusively used to refer to purposefully-maligned algorithms engineered to addict and abuse people. Nothing about any of the Fediverse services is designed this way because they're not chasing money or engagement, they're made to help people converse in a human way.
If you're not logged in, the evil algorithmic trending feed is literally the first thing you'll see being pushed onto you. (seems like it's a default setting, because it's that way across several different instances.) So what's the truth? Seems like an incoherent position to me, especially given how mastodon itself advertises it as "no algorithms". It doesn't hold true when you can immediately see algorithmic feeds, at most charitable it's confused, at worst it's just a barefaced lie.
So it's literally just "bad algorithms" (the ones other platforms make) and "good algorithms" (the good algorithms good platforms make, like us). Which is kind of literally how it is, there are good ones and bad ones, except both of these kinds of platforms employ "bad" engagement driving discovery algorithms, so it's really just 'us vs them'. The trending and news algorithms are literally just driving engagement and discovery, and top hashtags feed is proudly clamoring how much engagement there is. Doesn't seem like they're not "chasing" it.
You seem to be purposefully mixing the two opposing uses of the word "algorithm". On the non-abusive platforms, an algorithm is a fairly simplistic set of criteria that are designed to be useful to the human beings that use a service. If you want to, you can inspect the code used to generate them; the likes of Mastodon don't hide how these work because they aren't trying to harm anyone.
I think this is the part of Mastodon's code that calculates the Trending page: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/tree/main/app/models/tr...
These sorts of algorithms tend to promote posts or people that have recently been popular for the purpose of being useful to folk. On the likes of tiktok, facebook and twitter they are the culmination of very large sums of money and an ocean of professional psychological collaborators with the aim to purposefully harm and addict people, e.g. to manipulate public opinion and democracy, incite the suicide of transgender people and the perpetration of genocide. For money. I find it difficult to believe that you're arguing, in good faith, that the two types of "algorithm" have much in common.
I am not sure how it is "evil" showing recently-popular posts on a social media server's home page to logged-out people, and how that's pushing anything. It's not an agenda, it's not a series of posts that are picked because they are likely to addict and enrage people. I do suspect that there's some ragebait that shows up, because some people are still having to unlearn the indoctrination they're suffering from.
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> In the discourse about social media, the term "algorithm" is exclusively used to refer to purposefully-maligned algorithms engineered to addict and abuse people.
But I feel like it misses the point. What about a service where you can design and use your own "algorithms", and it's built into the platform?
Such a platform would have thousands of algorithms, but none of them designed for chasing money or engagement, just different preferences. But Mastodon could still claim "We don't use The Algorithm and is therefore better than other places" while a platform with custom user-owned algorithms could get the best of both worlds.
That's not something that I have any interest in, but I'm not opposed to it as I know other people have asked about it.
A very quick peruse of the Mastodon issue tracker came up with information about this on the ActivityPub level (albeit in an old toot): https://mastodon.social/@reiver/113668493283013849 and someone kindly rounded up similar feature requests here: https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/issues/33098#issuecomme...
I like the idea of it not being related to a platform or implementer, but baked into the spec ala a feature of ActivityPub.
Such a platform is not a hypothetical: https://docs.bsky.app/docs/starter-templates/custom-feeds
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In this context, "algorithm" means something that gives you the endorphin hit and keeps you scrolling. Facebook is "algorithmic social media", whereas Mastodon is not.
I suggest calling it a 'ranking algorithm' or 'engagement-driven ranking algorithm' to be more precise.
That trending feed on mastodon would still literally be that, ranking posts on how much they're engaged with and further driving engagement on the platform. So I'm just wondering what hairs are even there to split.
Yes, but trending posts are a sidebar, not the main show, right?
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Not to mention "sort by most recent from accounts I follow" is an algorithm too.
I feel like the wording needs a bit of rewording/rework. I agree chronological order facilitates better discussions, but just saying that "Mastodon lacks algorithms" doesn't really help people understand things better.