Comment by jcarrano
7 months ago
In the past, we could have made a version of Signal without this spyware, to be installed as an APK (as I would expect the EU to force Google to ban the non-spying version from the app store). With the upcoming Android developer verification, this will no longer be a possibility.
Pretty neat how, out of the blue, two seemingly unrelated efforts manage to tighten together to create the perfect unavoidable storm.
I swear those Thursday bilderberg meetings are a thing.
The thing that depresses me about offhand references to bilderberg group is it's a missed chance to name real names. I don't know who they are, but from chat gpt'ing it looks like there's some particular agencies regularly behind these. One is "DG Home," an EU department on security that drafts legislation.
Another is Europol, a security coordination body that can't legislate but frequently advocates for this kind of legislation.
And then there's LEWP, The law enforcement working party, a "working group" comprised of security officials from member EU states, also involved in EU policy making in some capacity.
Perhaps targeted reform of these bodies is in order so they don't keep producing this legislation over and over. The blocking minority shouldn't just oppose the legislation itself, but make sure that their representation at those bodies is stopping those recommendations from moving forward. The legislating infrastructure needs to be challenged as much as any particular bill.
People have been talking about this for years. Corruption, authoritarianism and fascism is eating the EU from within and people who warned about it were called from tin foil hatters to just nutters.
It seems the general direction in all big organization on this planet. EU is definitely not immune, but perhaps the most resistant so far.
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At least in the UK, a lot of these calls were made by the far right.
It's easy to dismiss as hypocritical, but it doesn't mean that they were wrong. Their "solution" to leave rather than fix was simply because they wanted it but in their control. Honestly they are nutters who make stuff up about "bendy bananas" etc, which dilutes the complaint.
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Still are being called that now.
Any political party of any member state that even thinks about being critical of the EU will instantly be completely destroyed by "independent" national (state sponsored) media.
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That's the fun part, they are all public conferences, like: https://initiatives.weforum.org/global-coalition-for-digital...
It doesn't have to be in secret, they can and do plan and coordinate these efforts in the open. When we hear about it, it was already planned for many years.
> seemingly unrelated efforts
What are the odds
I mean, "the police should have the power to read your communication" is not some fringe view. It's been the view of every state in the history of forever.
Couldn't someone just build that Signal APK without spyware and then get it signed/verified by Google?
The Google change means that every APK has to be signed and linked to a developer with a verified identity.
Unless Google might not be willing to approve this alternative version of Signal, but is there any indication of that? The Signal clients are open source with a permissive license so there's nothing unauthorized about building and distributing a modified version yourself.
If the developer is in the EU, they can come after them. If not, the EU can direct Google to revoke the verification. The commission has a big lever to pull with fines which are pretty much arbitrary.
The point is, before, you could run apps on your Android phone without anyone's permission. Now, you need Google's permission. You're relying on Google authorizing a Signal build which circumvents laws, and that's not at all a given.
> Couldn't someone just build that Signal APK without spyware and then get it signed/verified by Google?
The Signal CEO aid that they would pull out entirely from the EU if Chat Control comes to pass.
> Unless Google might not be willing to approve this alternative version of Signal, but is there any indication of that?
In this scenario, Signal will still be allowed to be distributed outside of the EU so you could get it from the Play store hosted out of the EU.
If you do this with Apple they will deny it as “too similar”.
They have no obligation to sign anything, and they aren’t in the business of fighting city hall. Quite the opposite.
Is there any indication that Google will obey the laws of the EU when they have no vested interest in the outcome?
They only break the law when it earns them bundles of money.
>Is there any indication that Google will obey the laws of the EU when they have no vested interest in the outcome?
In this context it isn't EU laws. The upcoming Android change in 2026 will stop anyone installing a non-verified app on their Android devices. This seems to be something Google arrived at "independently". But I would bet the US and EU and whoever else have put pressure on them.
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The EU says it wants to challenge Big Tech. What they mean is they want to blackmail them into giving them privileged access to information, control- and surveillance systems.
Android as it is fails as an operating system and the same idiots ruining perfectly good software in other companies now work for Google. Not that iOS is in any way better, it has the exact same and even more deficiencies.
There are plenty of devices running older versions of Android which are not under Big G's control and won't be subjected to this authoritarianism. Coincidentally they are also likely to be easily rootable, so you can still have full freedom.
Just don't "upgrade" and ignore all the propaganda telling you bad things about that. Keep building apps that work on older, less-hostile devices and spread the word to oppose this very deliberate planned obsolescence.
True, but there are apps, as reported in other threads in this forum, that will not run on rooted phones. E.g. banking and government apps. Most people will not go around with a rooted phone, much less with two phones.
> Coincidentally they are also likely to be easily rootable, so you can still have full freedom.
Also easily remotely ownable, so you can be spied on without even having to install any software at all. And any that aren't now will be a couple of years after they fall out of support. Which, by the way, is very hard for the community to step in and do, since they're full of undocumented proprietary binary blobs.
> Just don't "upgrade" and ignore all the propaganda telling you bad things about that.
... and when your fully owned device finally breaks completely?
You've fallen for the propaganda. "remotely ownable" is only true if you do things like visit sites with JS enabled by default, which is what has been the case with true PCs for a long time.
There's a whole community keeping these devices alive, I trust them far more than Big G.
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Molly (signal fork) on GrapheneOS will still be there
Why is it so hard to run virtual android on your Android as a sandbox for these kinds of things.
Since the right people are here, can anyone explain to me why its so hard to "root" (in reality, obtain basic filesystem / networking etc. control) with that OS?
GrapheneOS is focused on being as secure as possible. When you put root access into the equation, all the security protections are irrelevant if apps are able to bypass them at will.
It's really not that hard to do, just antithetical to the purpose of the OS.
Slow heating boils the frog.
Move now to alternatives. If you must use Android, GrapheneOS with Sandboxed Play Services.
It already took a mountain of resisting the network effect to get at least some half of my friends to chat with me on Signal. The chances to get them to move to something more obscure, that has any additional friction is low and the effort in convincing them will be high. That's not to say I won't try, but man I hope it doesn't come to that.
> If you must use Android
the reasonable alternative being... ?
For people looking for a new phone it could be either Jolla [0] or Fairphone 6 [1]. Both come with their own OS.
[0] https://jolla-devices.com/sailfish_devices/
[1] https://shop.fairphone.com/de/the-fairphone-gen-6-e-operatin...
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You got me. None.
I do wish ubports + waydroid would be a reasonable alternative -- but it's wishful thinking.
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GNU/Linux phones.
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Google won't have to ban the non-spying version of Signal, Signal will simply cease to operate in the EU. That's what the Signal CEO said in an interview.
>as I would expect the EU to force Google to ban the non-spying version from the app store
If you expect hostile action by Google you should also expect the rootkit that is google play services to also do that. Which means in both cases the solution would be to use a actual open source mobile OS based on AOSP.