Comment by covercash

9 days ago

If the US government and corporate executives had even half this level of shame, we'd have nobody left in those positions!

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covercash

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southernplaces7  9 days ago

Not the same country but another example of a culturally similar attitude towards shame over failure: In Japan in 1985, Flight 123, a massive Boeing 747 carrying 524 people, lost control shortly after takeoff from Tokyo en route to Osaka.

The plane's aft pressure bulkhead catastrophically exploded, causing total decompression at the high altitude, severing all four of the massive plane's hydraulic stabilizer systems and entirely tearing away its vertical stabilizer.

With these the 747 basically became uncontrollable and minutes later, despite tremendously heroic efforts by the pilots to turn back and crash land it with some modicum of survivability for themselves and the passengers, the flight slammed into a mountain close to Tokyo, killing hundreds.

The resulting investigation showed that the failed bulkhead had burst open due to faulty repair welding several years before. The two technicians most responsible for clearing that particular shoddy repair both committed suicide soon after the crash tragedy. One of them even left a note specifically stating "With my death I atone". (paraphrasing from memory here)

I can't even begin to imagine a modern Boeing executive or senior staffer doing the same.

Same couldn't be said for Japanese military officials after the tragedy though, so who knows about cultural tendencies:

Right after the crash, helicopters were making ready to fly to the scene (it was night by this point) and a nearby U.S military helicopter squadron also even offered to fly in immediately. The local JSDF administration however stood all these requests down until the following morning, on the claim that such a tremendous crash must not have left anyone alive, so why hurry?

As it turned out, quite a number of people had incredibly survived, and slowly died during the night from exposure to cold and their wounds, according to testimony from the four who did survive to be rescued, and doctors who later conducted postmortems on the bodies.

godelski  9 days ago

You should look at the previous president of SK. Maybe a few more too... they frequently land in jail...

I'm not sure Yoon Suk Yeol had any shame

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Yoon_Suk_Yeol

  • covercash  9 days ago

    I would also be fine with US politicians and corporate executives landing in jail. At this point, any consequences will be more than they currently face.

    • godelski  9 days ago

      We are a country without kings. No one should be above the law. Those tasked with upholding the law should be held to higher standards. I'm not sure why these are even up for debate

  • strawhatguy  8 days ago

    The weird thing is 13 days later his temporary successor Han was also impeached, basically because he vetoed two bills doing investigations into Yoon. IIRC, the constitutional court wasn’t fully appointed yet. And also apparently, an impeachment is a simple majority in the Assembly, and appears the DPK (the current majority party) has been impeaching everyone they disagree with. My wife, who’s from Korea, says that Lee, the now president, apparently had a “revolutionary” past, and was thrown in jail; and also one justice from the court also had a criminal record.

    It’s pretty crazy over there, Lee’s probably safe right now just because his party’s the majority. But it also sounds like they’ve been abusing the impeachment process against the minority party.

    • godelski  8 days ago 

        > My wife, who’s from Korea

      Lol, I'm in a similar boat.

        > 13 days later his temporary successor Han was also impeached

      Crazier than that![0]

        - Han Duck-soo: Acting president for 13 days. Impeached for refusing to investigate Yoon Suk Yeol and Kim Keon Hee (Yoon's wife). 
    - There were 192 votes against him and 108 members *abstained* from voting. This meant that they failed to form a quorum. *This vote was strictly party lines*
    - They ruled that they only need 50% approval because Han was the Prime Minister. *President needs 2/3rds btw*
  - Choi Sang-mok: was the acting PM for those 13 days. But only serves for 87!
  - 24 March SK's (equivalent to) supreme court overrules Han's impeachment 7-1, and Han once again becomes the acting president.

      So he was impeached after 13 days for trying to bury Yoon's impeachment case, the Conservatives refuse to show up to the hearing, and months later he gets reinstated by the highest court.

        > the DPK has been impeaching everyone they disagree with.

      My understanding is that there's kinda a history of this as well as pardoning. Take Park Geun-hye[2] as an example. She was the leader of the GNP (Grand National Party; SK's conservative party), and in December 2016 she was impeached (234 to 56) for influence peddling. Hwang Kyo-ahn (Prime Minister) becomes acting president. In March of 2017, their supreme court upholds the impeachment unanimously, and in May Moon Jae-in (DPK) becomes president. April 2018 Park is sentenced to 24 years in jail, and then is further prosecuted for stealing money from Korea's CIA and interfering in elections. In December 2021 Hwang pardons her and she's back home early 2022.

      Before Yoon was Moon Jae-in (DPK), who the GNP tried to impeach in 2019. (Hwang Kyo-ahn was acting after Park's impeachment, who preceded Moon).

      Before Park was Lee Myung-bak (GNP). He got 15 years in prison. In 2022 Yoon gave him a pardon.

      Before Lee was Roh Moo-hyun (Liberal party) (Goh Kun was in between because...) but was impeached (193 to 2) in 2004 and his supporters were literally fighting people in the assembly. Month later supreme court overturned impeachment. After he left presidency people around him started getting sentenced. In 2009 he threw himself off a cliff as investigations were following him too.

      Since the 60's they've had a president exiled, a coup, and even an assassination. It's fucking wild!

      And don't get started on chaebols...[3]

      [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_South_Ko...

      [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Han_Duck-soo

      [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park_Geun-hye

      [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaebol

makeitdouble  9 days ago

"suicide" in these circumstances is usually something else altogether.

Even in cases it is executed by themselves, shame won't be the primary motivation.

  • spoaceman7777  9 days ago

    You may want to familiarize yourself more with the culture around this in places like South Korea and Japan.

    • makeitdouble  9 days ago

      It can be posed as shame on the front side.

      More often than not the suicide covers a whole organization's dirty laundry. You'll have people drunk and driving their cars over cliffs [0], low profile actors ending their life as shit hits the fan [0] etc.

      Then some on the lower rank might still end their life to spare their family financially (insurance money) or because they're just so done with it all, which I'd put more on depression than anything.

      Us putting it on shame is IMHO looking at it through rose colored glasses and masking the dirtier reality to make it romantic.

      [0] https://bunshun.jp/articles/-/76130

      [1] https://www.tsukubabank.co.jp/cms/article/a9362e73a19dc0efcf...

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  • raingrove  9 days ago

    In Korea, shame often serves as the primary motivator behind high-profile suicides. It's rooted in the cultural concept of "chemyeon (체면)", which imposes immense pressure to maintain a dignified public image.

    • makeitdouble  9 days ago

      Do you have any example of these high profile suicides that can't be better explained as "taking one for the team" for lack of a better idiom.

      Shame is a powerful social force throughout the society, but we're talking about systematic screwings more often than not backed by political corruption (letting incompetent entities deal with gov contract on basis of political money and other favors) or straight fraud.

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