Comment by michaelnovati
5 days ago
I'm Michael and this was about me. This person never reached out for comment and is missing half the story. I'm happy to fill people in on the rest if this person or someone else wants to hear.
I agree with one or two of the characterizations but the majority I don't and there is a lot more to this story than it seems...
RE: INDUSTRY. Rithm School (their main competitor) shut down. Hack Reactor is down to single digit cohorts allegedly. Launch School is slowing down from 3 cohorts a year to 2. Numerous other bootcamps have shut down. Codesmith's decline is predominantly an industry problem.
RE: CODESMITH. For starters as an example, Codesmith's website, email, and entire AWS account was down for 3 weeks because they got locked out from not updating their credit card and then losing the root password and their 2-factor was a phone number. This is unacceptable.
Yet they market themselves as similar outcomes to elite grad schools and it's very reasonable to challenge them on their hyperbolic marketing.
Both sides of the story need to be heard before making a judgement.
If you really cared, this should have started with: "I am stepping down as the moderator..."
Even though you have counter claims, you moderating the forum for your industry is problematic. You also seem keen to chime in about a competitor when you should be impartial and allow users to discuss their experiences alone.
Yes there are two sides to every story, but in no universe should you be the mod of that subreddit.
This is not my industry, no. Had the author reached out for comment they could publish my claims. More interested in a hit piece than the truth.
Even if we accept all your claims at face value, your behaviour in your capacity as the moderator of that subreddit was still immoral. However you feel about it, being a moderator is a voluntary responsibility which comes with an expectation of impartiality and service at the expense of, not in furtherance of, your personal goals.
At best, if everything you say is true, what you are doing is akin to proudly volunteering as a firefighter so that you can slow-walk the response if a fire is ever reported at the NXIVM HQ. Your crusade against NXIVM may be righteous, and it might even be universally considered a net good if its HQ were to burn down, but it would still raise a lot of eyebrows if it came out that you intended to use your position in that fashion.
edit: To be clear, I sympathise with your claim that you are being subjected to a one-sided hit, and am starting to feel uneasy with the dogpiling atmosphere that is building in this subthread. However, it is understandable to me why this is happening - fundamentally, Reddit has become a town square that is really not engineered correctly to be one. In a town square, people want to choose their leaders, but subreddits are by design "storefronts", in which leaders (moderators) choose their people. This tension is resolved by a very unpleasant jerry-rigged substitute for democratic control: the one way you can "vote out" a moderator (who has the backing or indifference of everyone above him) is to apply psychological pressure, or other harm (such as the reputational damage your company is no doubt taking as we speak), until they crack and resign. This is sort of democratic because larger fractions of the "electorate" can achieve it more easily, but even turning up to such a "vote" that you ultimately lose entails social violence.
It doesn't seem like you are willing to resign, nor to put your moderator status up for a community vote (if that could even be made fair, after you presumably banned a lot of would-be voters, and conversely could accuse the other side of botting/brigading). What other options do those who do not want the town square to be moderated by you have?
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Your own words:
>> I'm the co-founder of an interview prep mentorship platform [...] my company's services so there is a small amount of overlap on the most experienced end of Codesmith and the least experienced end of Formation. <<
https://www.reddit.com/r/codingbootcamp/comments/18cpq98/ana...
A "hit piece" can be the truth and that one is.
Do you deny that you work for the competitor? If you don't deny that, then it IS your industry.
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> RE: CODESMITH. For starters as an example, Codesmith's website, email, and entire AWS account was down for 3 weeks because they got locked out from not updating their credit card and then losing the root password and their 2-factor was a phone number. This is unacceptable.
Everything I can find online, including your post on reddit about the outage, says the outage was for 4 days. Not 3 weeks.
I'll also note that your post on reddit about the outage was phrased as if you were a student impacted by the outage, going so far as to say it was your "final straw" even though you don't have skin in the game other than as a competitor.
It was 3 weeks.
You provide no evidence and fail to respond to the criticism at the end ... which is bad behavior, among a great deal of other bad behavior.
do you think maybe they could have kept it up if they didn't layoff 80% of their staff because of your modding? reddit is essentially google results at this point, don't act coy.
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No
I would really like to hear both sides to the story. But from the data it seems like you have been obsessively commenting on the subreddit about codesmith for more than a full year. And almost 80% have been negative. This looks unhinged because you are a moderator of the subreddit. What's the other side to this?
I was being threatened by anonymous Reddit accounts a few weeks ago so I made some defensive PR docs but I need to sleep on it to decide what to do.
This is what I do all day: https://github.com/mnovati
But yeah two sides to every story and if this has been going on for years, "1000 posts", there's clearly more to the story, and it's irresponsible to not reach out for comment if you are going to try to summarize that.
Is that what you do all day? Its trivially easy to make a profile look like yours, its a lot harder to actually have an average of 28 commits a day every day for a year with zero days off. Not for weekends, not for vacations, not for sickness. All in completely private repositories
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> This is what I do all day: https://github.com/mnovati
You showed me yours, I'll show you mine[0]. It’s all organic. A pretty significant part of that is open-source, or source-available, so it’s easy to verify. I think I may only have two or three private repos (but one of them is where I do a lot of work).
I’m retired, and work on code all day, most days. I’m just a wee bit obsessive, being “on the spectrum.” I average about 1,900 checkins per year. Some of the days that I do the most work, have 1 or zero checkins. I will sometimes shitcan a whole day’s worth of work, if I find myself in a rabbithole.
Here’s a fun GitHub tool[1].
I have no opinion on the article, or the responses, other than there’s a lot of ugly going on, and it isn’t really making my life any richer, reading it.
[0] https://github.com/ChrisMarshallNY#github-stuff
[1] https://github.com/gelstudios/gitfiti
What does showing your github do with writing about writing negative posts about a company almost every single day ?
A github with no public work isn't really a flex.
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I just don’t see how a GitHub link is supposed to answer the question. We all have day jobs too.
I could tell that all your code would be in private repo's before i even opened it. Zero open source contributions, and probably pushing comments so he can get a green every day.
i heard this has actually been going on for 3 years
Even if codesmith _was_ objectively bad, I am still wondering _why_ do you spend _so much time_ shittalking that company on every fucking occasion? Reddit, HN, LinkedIn. You are putting way too much energy into that, way more than the average person would objectively care. Makes me wonder.
a judge would def consider the extreme nature that’s occurred here. the number of posts is astounding, and the SEO damage could be monetarily accounted for.
FWIW those posts that show up in search are not my posts and I don't have control over that.
I don't "post" that much about Codesmith. I comment a lot about them.
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You’re trying to defend yourself, but you still can’t stop yourself from casting shade on Codesmith multiple times in this very comment.
You have just proved that Lars is spot on with his analysis that you are an obsessive stalker.
> Both sides of the story need to be heard before making a judgement.
Your side begins and ends at being a reddit moderator for an industry subreddit while working in said industry as a CTO. Anything you say or do in this position should rightfully be assumed to be biased.
You’re doing the same thing here that the article is accusing you of doing on Reddit.
Do they though? Being a reddit mod for a sub that covers an industry you have a vested interest in with no other mods with similar backgrounds really does sound like a well traffic'd and successful bully pulpit.
My company works with a lot of bootcamp grads later on in their careers so wouldn't I have an interest in promoting bootcamps so more people go and create more customers down the road?
I recommended a bunch of people go to Codesmith until February 2024, when the first signs of collapsed started.
A person with integrity would have promoted bootcamps and recused themselves from smearing competitors.
> Numerous other bootcamps have shut down. Codesmith's decline is predominantly an industry problem.
In that case can you share the user stats for the sub? Because if coding boot camp as an industry is dying the growth of the sub should have also slowed down or plateaued, right?
Your post does not really do much to dispel the negative picture that the opening article paints of you. You say their decline is "predominantly an industry problem". Is this also the case for your own company, Formation? You went on the record comparing Codesmith to a sex cult and accusing it of deceiving and exploiting its students and evidently consider criticising them to be a mission worth years of near-daily dedication, and the only example you have to offer to justify this in a thread where people question your motives for this is... some random anecdote about them having an IT fuckup?
This doesn't read as if you have a coherent case that Codesmith is bad to an extent that justifies your single-minded effort to spread this message, but as either an attempt to throw more FUD at the wall in the hope that something sticks even in this forum, or an indication that you are not quite well.
I compared the statement 'do this because it changed my life and the life of many others' to the type of language used in cult documentaries on HBO. I stand by that opinion.
Codesmith is not a sex cult. I can't believe I'm writing that sentence.
There were any number of less pejorative comparisons you could have made if that was all you wanted to say. I regularly see grandiose claims of life-changing benefits on everything ranging from mildly pointless and overpriced meditation retreats down to Toastmasters, and yet you chose the one entity whose main claim to publicity were things that got its leader-guru sentenced to 120 years in a max security prison.
> I compared the statement 'do this because it changed my life and the life of many others' to the type of language used in cult documentaries on HBO
why did you make that comparison?
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> I compared the statement 'do this because it changed my life and the life of many others' to the type of language used in cult documentaries on HBO. I stand by that opinion.
This is ludicrous ... it's also the type of language used by all sorts of people in all sorts of situations. Mentioning a cult is the least charitable thing that can be said.
No doubt the industry suffered due to a market downturn, but your continuous posts and attacks worsened the situation for that company. Based on your Reddit activity, it appears to have been driven by a personal vendetta. If they pursue a defamation case, the evidence could strongly work against you. The overwhelming proof he presented of your actions toward the company would be difficult to defend. I honestly can’t understand why anyone would risk their own reputation—and that of their family—for dishonest gain. Most people are civil in such cases, but not everyone is if they conclude that evil was done. Scary situation to be in.
You don’t know when to stop, do you?
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Hi Michael. We overlapped significantly at Facebook and chatted a few times (I was on the source control team from 2012-2018ish, part of which was the migration to Mercurial). Correct me if I'm wrong, but you wrote some posts about how you wanted something like git rebase -i, right?
I know your heart is in the right place, and have a great deal of respect for you. I think being the most active moderator of a coding bootcamp subreddit while also running one is probably not the best use of your time, right? Even though I know you're being honest, just the appearance of a conflict of interest can be an issue. Why not find someone else to take over the reins, someone who isn't actively involved in the industry?
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One thing is a critic based on verifiable facts. Another thing is defending yourself. A third one is coming up with bad things nobody can verify. Your post mixes these things
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Dramatic much?
Oh you are gonna taste your own medicine here. Welcome.
He's not losing millions of dollars by being here. A taste of his own medicine should be given in court.
You should have never started moderating that subreddit because of the conflict of interest, it is completely unacceptable.
There are people coming forward with evidence on Michael Novati’s digital stalking. One previous instructor at code smith(who also worked at Microsoft at the time), said he was digitally stalked, Michael Novati found his employment history and kept calling him out publicly so he would get into trouble with Microsoft. All this despite the person having clearance from Microsoft to work as an instructor at codesmith. With the twisted logic I see this guy using here, I would assume he doesn’t even see this as digital stalking. I guess that’s what being the “number 1 code commiter at Meta”(according to his linkedin) would do to you.
I've been trying to comment and post on reddit u/codingbootcamp and nothing goes through completely suppress by the mod.
My comments are removed and i can't even make a post. I'm following all guide lines and nothing goes through.
Here is something I posted.
I want to raise a concern about moderator conduct. I have evidence (screenshots and permalinks) that suggests a moderator may have accessed and referenced private information about former employees and their family members. That kind of behavior would be unethical and could violate subreddit policy on harassment/privacy.
Mods: please confirm whether these actions occurred and, if so, what steps you will take. I’m happy to provide the evidence via modmail.
Hello. It's nice to be able to interact directly with the subject of the article, so thanks for coming on. It's a shame you're being downvoted, because it would definitely be interesting to hear your perspective. This can't be a pleasant experience for you.
I have a couple of questions for you. Firstly the article really didn't hold back about you in a way that you don't usually see. But he makes very specific and verifiable claims. The owner blames the market for 40% of their decline and you for another 40%. You have made over 400 negative comments about the company over the last couple of years. You run the subreddit as a bad faith mod, and you run a rival company so you have an interest in the decline of codesmith. Those are some of the accusations laid against you by the article.
I would be interested in hearing what you have to say about them. Obviously i don't expect you to say anything that might create legal issues for yourself. But you have opinions that youre not shy of expressing. The article was perhaps not wholly neutral so maybe you can clarify your side of the story. Do you have a specific problem with codesmith? why do you care so much about them? Is it because they are competitiors? Do you take such an active role on reddit in order to promote your own interests, outside of creating and maintaining a better community?
To be clear i'm a completely random guy with no skin in the game, just looking for answers.
[edit to reply: There is no plausible scenario that my life will depend on the answer. Literally the only reason i'm on here is for casual chit chat. Frankly, this might be life changing for some people, but i'm really not too invested in the story so i don't mind opening some dialogue in good faith from my end.]
This is a wonderfully mature and constructive comment.
I appreciate this is off-topic, but I really wanted to highlight/praise what you'd written. It came across to me as very "HN" and the guidelines appear to corroborate this...
> Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
Thanks for that. I've been through the guidelines a dozen times. Following them is really the best possible way to have genuinely interesting and constructive dialogue. My last account got banned so i've been trying to do better. It's amazing how much some good faith conversation can get you, i feel in the time i've been here it's helped me develop better patterns of thought and argument techniques, i would say the most important lesson i've learned is to debate in good faith as much as possible and being honest with yourself about what you know and don't know. Most of the users on this thread are just looking to shut michael down, and expressing their opinion that he's an awful person... It's really very tiresome and boring. I have enough confidence in people here that they can hear what he has to say and make their own judgement.
You should be able to identify badfaith because your life depends on it. Otherwise you will drown in a pit of bothsides. Bad way to go.
Next we should hear from the counter party is from a court filing. Not here. This is well past having a chill chat on hackernews.
Yeah I'll I'm going to say for now is that if all your competitors (that I spoke positively about) are shutting down and shrinking and laying people off... there's more to the story. A sad story about an industry dying that should be told.
There’s a pattern to the way you communicate, where you always end things at a cliffhanger.
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You keep saying that there’s more to the story but then won’t say what that ‘more’ is. If the article is truly not a truthful accounting of events, you have the opportunity here to set the record straight. That you are not doing that only reinforces everything the article is claiming.
Were you a moderator for them as well?
“it’s a sad story” is such an “aw shucks”, condescending sorta bullshit thing to say. I’ve read your posts where you claimed to be bullied as a kid (which i’m obviously sorry for if true), but to then channel that into becoming the bully yourself? That’s 1000% on you, Michael.
Great, then give us more to the story.
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Michael for what it's worth I went to Codesmith back in 2016 lol and even then Will was a lil greasy with his marketing! LOL
I commented on the moderation stuff only to start, https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=45524707&goto=item%3Fi...
This is a link to reply to a post that cannot be used by anyone who doesn't have an account. For anyone else browsing without being logged in (or using a client that can't parse the link), the post URL is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45524707
I hope he sues you.
https://www.google.com/search?q=intentional+interference+wit...
Would posting to 20,000 people telling them that I was using multiple Slack aliases to 'steal students' from Codesmith's community - which was entirely and utterly false in every aspect of that statement - count under this definition?
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Are you planning to write something up about it? It would be interesting to hear the other side that you’re hinting at.
It’s also not clear to me if the person who wrote this article was paid for it or if they’re somehow affiliated with someone involved. It says they’re a “Fractional VP of Content”. I’m curious if you know more.
Lofgren is a critic of Reddit moderation. It's extremely unlikely that he was paid for his blog entry, and he's not affiliated with anyone involved.
I might. I have hordes of documents. It's a really sad situation and very sad that he characterized this this way without even talking to me whatsoever.
I have hordes of documents.
Funny enough, one of my attorneys taught me a lesson a long time ago around this. Simplified, she said "only and idiot claims to have lots of documents" to support their action. Sure, it's the easy/lazy way to try and intimidate people with the lowest amount of knowledge about how things work. But anyone with the slightest clue knows 1) talk is cheap, 2) you don't need a lot of docs, you just need the one that matters, and 3) if you claim to have documents, you'll eventually have to produce them, and if you can't, you look like an idiot.
Maybe put another way...don't let your mouth write checks your body can't cash.
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I believe the phrase that applies here is "put up or shut up". If you have hordes of documents to draw on as primary sources, then it should be pretty simple (but perhaps time consuming) to write a rebuttal.
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Hey Michael -- you're a fucking loser.
Hey Fuck You Michael, you are a piece of shit and no one should get to know you. Just got aware what shitty people exist in this field
His responses here and on reddit remind me of Karoline Levitt responding to press.
Yep, this man is just pure evil you can see that on his head. Everyone says the same lol he researched best thing to share this up with if someone catches him red hand
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