Comment by AndrewKemendo
7 months ago
My assumption is that the HN audience is not perfectly gaussian distribution of the population but probably not extremely far from it.
So can someone who owns a modern car please help me understand why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off?
A vehicle is a personal safety device, that allows for independent travel away from bad things and towards safe things. That is one of the most critical aspects of a vehicle.
Assuming that one of the most critical times you might need a vehicle is fleeing oppression, having a remote switch off as a possible vector to impede your escape is an existential threat and basically makes one of the core reasons to have a vehicle moot.
My assumption is that most people are not thinking about their vehicle as one of the most critical tools for freedom.
Having traveled the world and lived in war zones, vehicles are life savers and it’s insane to me that anyone would allow a possibility for someone else, specifically corporations and governments with major power levers, to even have the ability to stop that remotely.
Given the increasing computerization of modern cars, how could you possibly verify that this wasn’t possible on *any* car you buy?
The only way I can think of is “don’t buy a car made within the last 25 years”
> The only way I can think of is “don’t buy a car made within the last 25 years”
You don't need to go that far back. None of my cars have any kind of connectivity, the newest one is 2014. I'll never own a car with any kind of remote connectivity, the risk is far too large to ignore.
So you'll be buying mid 2010's cars for the rest of your life?
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This is why some hardcore folks go ‘trad diesel’. Just glowplugs and mechanical parts!
Notably, you have to go back to 70’ish era to get that kind of equipment. Almost everything else has some kind of ECU.
Cellular connections didn’t start becoming somewhat common until the late 90’s-early 2000’s though.
So, either a modern safe car with a remote killswitch or a deathtrap car that will kill you in many exciting ways. Sophie's choice of cars.
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There is a UK company that puts engines with mechanical fuel pumps in newer cars. Particularly newer landrovers. £10k ugrade, and the last car you need ever buy.
https://dieselpumpuk.com/
I have a 92 civic it certainly can’t be remotely shut off.
I also have 2008 mazda3. Great reliable car. Also no connectivity whatsoever.
No need to go that far back. My 2010 vehicle has no remote connection.
You can usually delete the modem on your car.
Correct
I will not buy a post patriot act vehicle
So you exclusively buy pre-2000's shitboxes? Is there a reason for that, when you could literally just rip the modem out of a modern car instead?
If you're driving such old cars, I have to assume you're mechanically inclined. At which point, a simple bypass cable or literally just removing the telematics unit out of a modern vehicle should not be too much to ask for.
Bonus points for gaining moderate security with immobilizers that way, so any random guy can't just start your car with a set of wafer jigglers.
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Don't buy modern cars. There is a real movement to keep driving cars from circa 2010. This was around peak car for me. You could still block off the egr valve, remove the cat and any dpf nonsense. No 'driving aids' to distract and infuriate me. No touch screens to distract and infuriate me. No software updates. Can still get over 50mpg. My car is going to keep being fixed as long as it is viable.
Deleting the cat is straight up delinquency.
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I hope deleting the cat brings a permanent black mark in the MOT history. I wouldn't like to get a damaged car second hand.
OK, I'll bite. Name 2 or more cars from 2010 that got better than 50mpg. I'll wait.........
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Unfortunately increasingly illegal in the EU because of the ULEZs, mandatory driving aids, etc.
Buying a car from 2010 is a guarantee that you won't be able to drive it in 5-10 years..
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> Assuming that one of the most critical times you might need a vehicle is fleeing oppression
That's a hell of an assumption.
If we're talking about population distributions, I would argue that "having lived in war zones" puts you well outside the center of the curve.
It is extremely far from it in the US, I promise.
But direct answers:
1. They don’t know that can happen. The salesman doesn’t point it out.
2. They figure all cars will be that way soon so why worry about it.
3. It’s never happened to anyone before so why worry about it.
4. We don’t know anyone who has ever had to flee from oppression in their car so why worry about it. And this is America, if that’s what we’re worried about we’ll stock up on ammo.
Etc
> So can someone who owns a modern car please help me understand why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off?
In practice, getting t-boned at an intersection where I have the right of way is a much greater risk to me than my car getting shut off, so it makes sense to optimize for safety in the former case.
Like smart TVs, the only possible alternative is buying a 10 year old model on the secondhand market. Vehicles without these features have not been produced in a long time
Dumb TVs are still being made. I bought this Sharp commercial TV just last year: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CCMXNRFH
Of course they're not mass-market and will be lacking on some other bullet point features, but if you really care about your TV not turning into an ad billboard in 2 years, they're the way to go.
Or never wire the tv. Thats what I did. Everything runs through my Apple TV (admittedly captured by my years of employment there) but could just as well run through a Kodi instance
You’ve got me thinking. I drive a Chinese made EV. If China ever had a nuclear war with the west they would definitely brick all of the cars they’ve sold us. Also it doesn’t have to be China that issues the command. Remote shutoff of cars is a great cyber warfare target.
I’ve looked at the fuse box for my car and found the fuse that powers the Ariel Module. Removing this fuse breaks GPS and all cellular connectivity. Hopefully it breaks automatic updates. I am tempted to leave it disconnected to see if my car skips an update.
The rest of the car works fine. If the political situation heats up then I can remove this fuse to isolate my car from the internet.
Some people connect a toggle switch in place of this fuse so they can leave the car disconnected from the internet when they are not using online functions.
I would be surprised if simply removing a fuse voids my warranty.
Not sure about the warranty effect, but on many other vehicles there are also bypass cables for the telematics units that allow you to physically remove them entirely from the car without losing any functionality (well, other than the online functionality obviously).
In my case, I'll gladly take potentially voiding the warranty on a car that almost certainly has it expired anyway, over being surveilled and monitored by the manufacturer so my usage habits can be reported to insurance companies.
Disable brakes and set acceleration to max, on all of them simultaneously, would have rather bigger impact than switching them off.
Doing it intelligently through an automatic OTA update that waits for the user to be in a difficult scenario would be much smarter.
Bonus points for adding a time-based kill switch so this feature gets pushed out months in advance, just to ensure everyone with such a vehicle has this malicious update installed.
> So can someone who owns a modern car please help me understand why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off?
That’s not what is going on here. These cars are not being intentionally shut down remotely. Instead, a software update for some computerized components of the car was pushed down to the cars and installed with the owners permissions, but that update apparently has severe bugs that should have been caught by QA.
This is a distinction without a difference. Intentional or not, these vehicles were disabled remotely.
Even if the owner gave permission to install the update, I would strongly wager that they did not give concurrent permission for the update to change the behavior of the vehicle.
Of course, I sincerely doubt the EULA offers any way to separate those permissions; you are all in, or you are all out. Assuming that you even have an option to opt out.
And that’s exactly why these cars can never be trusted under any circumstances, ever.
"Do you want to update? Yes or later". And blocks semi-critical stuff so you must address it.
"Do you want to update? Yes or later". And blocks semi-critical stuff so you must address it.
"Do you want to update? Yes or later". And blocks semi-critical stuff so you must address it.
"Update now. You cannot refuse since you said no 3 times"
Or, other parodies, "Just say MAYBE LATER to drugs"
if you really mean help you understand why and that wasn't a rhetorical exageration, it's not hard to understand.
Most people have a variety of things they are looking for in a car they want to purchase, and other factors are more important to them than this one, which they figure probably won't happen anyway. There may be few options that aren't updateable over the air, and those options don't meet their other criteria -- if they even get that deep into considering it, which they probably don't, they just aren't really thinking about it. But even if they did. you don't have the option of buying your perfect fantasy car. I'd like to buy a car with manual mechanical controls instead of touch screen controls, but there aren't that many options for that either, and they may not meet my other needs.
Realistically I would be cycling out of my city because if there was anyone else except me running from oppression, we would be all caught in the same traffic jam.
I happen to live on the outskirts, but there are several choke points where it would be really easy to set up a barrier. Those choke points apply to cars mostly.
> Realistically I would be cycling out of my city
Good for you, sensible and community minded to keep roads clear(er)
You have no dependant children or pets that you must take care of too
Lots of child comments mention fleeing oppression as being something outside the norm. A more relatable thing to flee for Americans might be hurricanes and wildfires-- both of which sizeable numbers of Americans have had to flee somewhat regularly.
Same reason people buy most things these days: convenience. Do you own a cell phone? It can be remotely updated (and even shut down by malicious actors), yet most people own one and don't think twice about it.
> So can someone who owns a modern car please help me understand why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off?
Because afaik, all the modern cars have this as a 'feature', but there's lots of other nice features they have.
The best of both worlds right now is an earlier modern car where the 2g/3g modem can no longer connect to the outside world. Even better if you can pull the modem, but they're usually up behind a lot of trim.
They generally just don’t think about or even know it’s a thing.
Most people push button, aim steering wheel, and voila.
Don’t even have to push a button nowadays. That convenience is apparently worth the risks. It’s really nice to not have to have keys or worry about turning the car off or on.
Is this an EV? I assume such a feature would be quite dangerous for an ICE vehicle.
> why you would buy a car that has the mere capability to be remotely shut off
One answer to this I would presume is: there are no other new cars for sale without this flaw.
Why there aren't regulations or forced options in the market without these functions (as well as with physical control knobs instead of touch surfaces) is a good question too. There is huge demand for cars without most of this nonsense, yet I don't see that demand being met.
I doubt anyone wants a car whose infotainment system can be improperly updated to cause catastrophic power and engine failure while driving, if given this information and a choice to avoid it.
The more cynical/conspiratorial among us (myself included) have come to the conclusion that this demand isn't being met because powerful people want it this way.
I mean in a post-patriot act America, is that really a conspiracy?
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You can usually remove the fuse that powers the 5G antenna. That will probably isolate your car from kill switch software updates.
Agreed that most people don’t think about this. I’m a preper and I hadn’t thought about this.
I'm buying a reliable and comfortable way to travel around the home town, not into warzone.
Yes, I want it to be connected to the app, to conveniently see fuel level, location, etc.
Wouldn't it make sense to keep your prepper car in the garage (next to the welder) and low-mileage? Use the one with fancy electronics as a daily driver and hope the revolution doesn't happen during your commute.
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