Comment by jlokier
7 months ago
> - You're basically at risk of your Jeep going limp (power loss, unable to safely make it to the shoulder) and being stranded on the highway, even as I write this.
This seems extraordinary.
I was going to ask: Are you really saying they kill the vehicle's power system, effictively the engine, while the vehicle is being driven on the highway?
But no need to ask, the article says yes, that's what is reported:
> Instead, the failure appears to occur while driving—a far more serious problem. For some, this happened close to home and at low speed, but others claim to have experienced a powertrain failure at highway speeds.
Wow.
Ya, that is shockingly scary. It makes me think we need some new standards about software updates to vehicles in general (or perhaps these already exist but were missed for some reason?). I can totally imagine that software used to be this ancillary selling point that didn't need such tight regulation, but as it becomes core infrastructure for the vehicle this is less of an IoT toy, and deserves stricter standards.
How about: you get to say whether you want to update and when and manufacturers are required to very explicitly list all of the changes in an update? That would seem to be an acceptable minimum.
I don't think that Jeep would have sent out a message saying that one of the changes would brick your machine.
It seems that the ability to trivially roll back any update would be a better choice, at least for this. (But I'm sure there are downstream effects I haven't thought about if that were implemented.)
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It has become convenient for manufacturers to treat software/firmware differently from hardware, and we should fight that. If you buy a car, phone, or a TV, you buy an appliance, not "hardware stored at your place with software/firmware controlled by us".
OTA software updates should be a convenience, not a requirement, never be automatic, and be otherwise treated just like a visit to a car repair shop.
Similarly, no manufacturer should be able to tell you "oh, but it's a software problem" if your thing doesn't work as expected (I had Apple tell me this, for example).
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Release notes won't help a user figure out whether the update is going to brick their car the day after they install the update.
The solution here is that the manufacturer needs to test their damn update before any of their customers get them.
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> How about: you get to say whether you want to update and when and manufacturers are required to very explicitly list all of the changes in an update?
Huh ? What a stoopid idea. Who would protect your security ? Who will protect the children ? /s
There is no need to invent new regulations. We already have criminal liability, endangerement from gross negligence, and manslaughter!
I do not see reason, why CEOs of big companies should be exempt from this!
If bus driver makes mistake, or someone drives drunk.... They get punished. This is the same thing!
> There is no need to invent new regulations.
The current regulations are written for a time where cars didn't have rolling computers in them. And even then, the regulations don't account for Tesla-style linked systems. So I say we do need new regulations.
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Yes and we have the NHTSA (unless it's already been neutered by the chaos) who can accumulate statistics and issue recalls.
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i'd venture a guess - you've never seen "Fight Club" :)
> It makes me think we need some new standards about software
No way. Testing is expensive. /s
Relevant: "Hackers Remotely Kill A Jeep On the Highway With Me In It" (2015)
https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-hig...
>> - You're basically at risk of your Jeep going limp
This has happened to me twice with a Nissan Leaf. I paid money to get a read out from the computer system, and there were no timestamps on the screens of data.
Modern cars "computers on wheels" are dreadful.
Is it possible to disconnect the power from the radios used for "over the air" nonsense? Then at least they would be stable.
In the Leaf, you can disconnect the TCU from the CAN gateway controller located behind the infotainment system to disable its remote connections.
It will throw a perpetual "check engine" light and disable the hands-free microphone, but OVMS users have made a "dummy TCU" that gets around that annoyance.
I have the opposite problem. The specific infotainment system update I need requires a $200 visit to a dealership with a specific model of a USB 2.0 SanDisk Flash Drive (NI-52727-1). Not available OTA despite the Leaf's OTA capabilities.
In my country that car would then fail inspection immediately. Of course you could reattach before the check up, but then there is no excuse for just shutting it off.
Buying a modern car seems to come with too many strings attached these days.
Is it possible to disconnect the power from the radios used for "over the air" nonsense? Then at least they would be stable.
I've read online that for some cars, you have to dig deep inside to disconnect the cellular antenna.
I'm a little more lucky. On my car, you can pop out the SIM card from a slot in the ceiling, behind the rear-view mirror.
This assumes you haven't given your car access to your home WiFi. (Some people do this so they don't have to pay for a data plan for their car, and it kinda sorta "syncs" when you get home.)
From a GPS software update... [1] "This is a telematics box module update" Telematics is primarily GPS and on-board diagnostics for location, speed, and fuel usage.
A GPS update kills your entire powertrain. Appears to also engage parking for some users, super dangerous. Catbones, "Almost died on the thruway today ... with an 18-wheeler behind me. ... Jeep died, locked its hand brake and jolted so hard my face almost ended up in the steering wheel at 70mph." [1]
[1] Wrangler 4xe forum, JeepCares and Catbones accounts: https://www.4xeforums.com/threads/wrangler-4xe-ota-update-10...
Personal bet: Jeep accidentally enabled the remote kill switch for repossessing automobiles. [2] Possibly the "impaired driver" kill switch. [3]
[2] Stateline, Late Payment Kill Switch: https://stateline.org/2018/11/27/late-payment-a-kill-switch-...
[3] Trackhawk, Federal Kill Switch Law: https://trackhawkgps.com/blog/kill-switch-law
Incredible that Jeep did not think to have updates only go out to cars which are stationary with engine off.
They did.
> The buggy update doesn't appear to brick the car immediately. Instead, the failure appears to occur while driving—a far more serious problem.
Top post in this thread says;
> My 4xe died in my driveway on Saturday after the update.
It seems not driving bricks as well.
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You know, if Stellantis and other manufacturers can't behave responsibly, OTA updates will be illegal. They really should get their act together.